Sax on the Web

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Balancing the Bari Grunt.....

StevenW
User ID: 8952923 Jun 16th 12:12 PM
Someone did a minidisc recording of my sax ensemble reading some quartet charts and did the microphone ever home in on my bari sound!!

I've already switch to playing a Yamaha YBS-52 and an Otto Link Tonemaster in lue of my usual SML Bari and Runyon Custom to back down the bari presence, but still it ends up sounding like Baritone Sax with a backing Saxophone Choir!

The grunt and growl is satisfying, but how do you get the little horns to play up to what a real bari can do?

Oh well, maybe I shouldn't complain.....

Shortwhite
User ID: 1188554 Jun 16th 2:47 PM
Steven,

Two of the most important things to strive for in a sax quartet, or any ensemble playing, are balance and blend. I don't know the set ups of the other players in your group but it seems as if the bari still needs to be toned down somewhat.

Let's consider a woodwind quintet. The french horn could certainly bury every other woodwind in the group volume wise. But (s)he has to learn to blend with the other instruments. The flute player doesn't run out and look for the loudest head joint.

One of the attractions of a woodwind quintet is the interplay of instruments of different timbres. In a sax quartet all the instruments have basically the same timbre so it should be thought of in a different way. I play tenor in the Nova Saxophone Quartet and we try to think as if we are one polyphonic instrument, say an organ. Think of a Bach fugue. As I take over the line from the bari player and the alto player in turn takes over the line from me, we try to make it sound as if one instrument was playing that line.

It sounds as if you are willing to make changes for the good of the group sound. Maybe it just needs to go a little farther.

GW

Ian O'B.
User ID: 8924643 Jun 16th 3:47 PM
Simple solution: Play softer!

:)

StevenW
User ID: 8952923 Jun 16th 4:07 PM
Softer... been going down that road... been doing that.... but a 'Gruntless' bari sax is a pathetic thing to the ear. Pushed softly enough you end up with no punch.

I should mention the group performs a lot of bass-line driven music, the 1920's/30's sort of things (Chevy Chase, Pussyfoot, Under the Double Eagle) as well as some lovely 14c/15c stuff (Gaudete, Tra Corbies, Henry the 8th type stuff) and modern charts.

We have on each instrument up to two bass saxes (we have two!), up to three on Bari, up to six tenors/altos, two have C-melodies, up to four Bb Sopranos, I've a C-Soprano, three are very competent Clarinet players, one also double on flute, one of the subs plays bassoon and trombone as well as sax.

Wish it was simple as softer.........

Now when I get the SML Bari out with the Runyon Custom just the tonal density is enough to fill a room! The color of sound!

Some of the issues may be miking issues and using a digital recorder. The Minidisc recorder seems to have it circuits tickled by the bari - or perhaps the Sony Engineers who designed it just loved Bari Sax??!!

regards,

Steve

super20dan
User ID: 0255034 Jun 16th 5:25 PM
use the selmer s80 mpc. this will tame the beast

Bootman
User ID: 1676554 Jun 16th 5:28 PM
It sounds as if your lead and higher end players aren't playing strongly enough. Bari has a nice big spread sound and it is hard to compete against this when using an alto or a tenor unless it is a vintage instrument.

A Yamaha bari woth a Link isn't a very loud set-up, I can bury a concert band with the JVW tweaked Q and a Conn Bari.

Perhaps you sould actually do some sound projection work with the other members of the orchestra or quartet. The benefits will come in the future by doing this.

Blending is correct but when you are play pp and all the others are playing f to match you, there is definitely something wrong. Wether this something is lack of confidence, lack of sound projection knowledge and or general inexperience, I am not certain. But I would be starting with group sound and tone exercises, playing outside and trying to fill the space with sound.

Sorry I can't be of more use.

MBushaw
User ID: 9851073 Jun 16th 6:03 PM
Have you tried a Rascher Bass/Bari piece? You'll have to grind off about 3/4 inch of the shank to get it to tune on the Yamaha. With the type of music you are playing, you have to change your tonal concept. Yes, they may be bass-driven tunes, but a bari sax from that period did not (usually) have much of a growl. Imagine someone taking a rock guitar setup to a classical guitar gig. Sounds good by himself, but isn't the right sound for the situation. With the Rascher, you will get a very cello-like tone, and your balance should come into line with everyone else. Remember, he who is loudest isn't always bestest.

RS
User ID: 0289604 Jun 17th 12:48 PM
I'd say that Bootman's right. The other cats aren't holding up their end of the load. As powerful as a bari sax can be it should not be overpowering the other horns when it's played at a moderate volume. Sounds like the other cats need to learn to put a little more air through their horns.

mark m
User ID: 1195644 Jun 17th 6:38 PM
The other factor not mentioned is the room you're recording in, which can hugely reinforce certain frequency ranges. So, in addition to all the other good suggestions, you might experiment with recording in some different rooms or with altering the acoustics of the room you're in and see if there's a difference. A "brighter" room might bring more balance.

Bari Martin
User ID: 0952054 Jun 20th 9:38 PM
Don't change your set-up - it works. Rather, try an old-fashioned remedy - a mute. This consists of a piece of semi-rigid plastic foam (not crumbly styrofoam, but that bendable white packing out of a computer box) in the shape of a donut, big enough to fit snug halfway between the last tone hole and the bell flare. The center hole has a diameter equal to half the overall diameter (these dimensions are a starting point, and may have to be adjusted for the desired volume attenuation and for intonation). It can be covered with dark cloth if you wish. This was the solution that old-time players used to muffle their sound without messing around with a set-up that works (of course, they didn't have foam, so their 'donut' was a piece of felt about 1" thick). In other words, if you get used to playing a 'legitimate' set-up, you risk losing that wonderful bari 'grunt' you speak of, and that would be too bad. Not everyone can blow a bari and get a big, projecting sound that sticks out, and this is exactly what you need for most bari work in the real world.

DougR
User ID: 9530533 Jun 21st 11:20 AM
You only mention the sound as heard from the minidisc.
How did it sound to an experienced listner - have you a conductor available?. Even a spare alto player would do - all you want is a description of the overall sound. It is possible that the sound in the room was well balanced.

A microphone can provide very misleading results, for instance - if sat on a table huge amounts of extra bass can appear - as though by magic. As the mic picks up structure borne noise. Either use a good shockmount or, quick and dirty, stand the mic on something soft. Simply suspending a mic by its cable can work wonders.

StevenW User ID: 8952923	Jun 16th 12:12 PM Someone did a minidisc recording of my sax ensemble reading some quartet charts and did the microphone ever home in on my bari sound!! I've already switch to playing a Yamaha YBS-52 and an Otto Link Tonemaster in lue of my usual SML Bari and Runyon Custom to back down the bari presence, but still it ends up sounding like Baritone Sax with a backing Saxophone Choir! The grunt and growl is satisfying, but how do you get the little horns to play up to what a real bari can do? Oh well, maybe I shouldn't complain.....
Shortwhite User ID: 1188554	Jun 16th 2:47 PM Steven, Two of the most important things to strive for in a sax quartet, or any ensemble playing, are balance and blend. I don't know the set ups of the other players in your group but it seems as if the bari still needs to be toned down somewhat. Let's consider a woodwind quintet. The french horn could certainly bury every other woodwind in the group volume wise. But (s)he has to learn to blend with the other instruments. The flute player doesn't run out and look for the loudest head joint. One of the attractions of a woodwind quintet is the interplay of instruments of different timbres. In a sax quartet all the instruments have basically the same timbre so it should be thought of in a different way. I play tenor in the Nova Saxophone Quartet and we try to think as if we are one polyphonic instrument, say an organ. Think of a Bach fugue. As I take over the line from the bari player and the alto player in turn takes over the line from me, we try to make it sound as if one instrument was playing that line. It sounds as if you are willing to make changes for the good of the group sound. Maybe it just needs to go a little farther. GW
Ian O'B. User ID: 8924643	Jun 16th 3:47 PM Simple solution: Play softer! :)
StevenW User ID: 8952923	Jun 16th 4:07 PM Softer... been going down that road... been doing that.... but a 'Gruntless' bari sax is a pathetic thing to the ear. Pushed softly enough you end up with no punch. I should mention the group performs a lot of bass-line driven music, the 1920's/30's sort of things (Chevy Chase, Pussyfoot, Under the Double Eagle) as well as some lovely 14c/15c stuff (Gaudete, Tra Corbies, Henry the 8th type stuff) and modern charts. We have on each instrument up to two bass saxes (we have two!), up to three on Bari, up to six tenors/altos, two have C-melodies, up to four Bb Sopranos, I've a C-Soprano, three are very competent Clarinet players, one also double on flute, one of the subs plays bassoon and trombone as well as sax. Wish it was simple as softer......... Now when I get the SML Bari out with the Runyon Custom just the tonal density is enough to fill a room! The color of sound! Some of the issues may be miking issues and using a digital recorder. The Minidisc recorder seems to have it circuits tickled by the bari - or perhaps the Sony Engineers who designed it just loved Bari Sax??!! regards, Steve
super20dan User ID: 0255034	Jun 16th 5:25 PM use the selmer s80 mpc. this will tame the beast
Bootman User ID: 1676554	Jun 16th 5:28 PM It sounds as if your lead and higher end players aren't playing strongly enough. Bari has a nice big spread sound and it is hard to compete against this when using an alto or a tenor unless it is a vintage instrument. A Yamaha bari woth a Link isn't a very loud set-up, I can bury a concert band with the JVW tweaked Q and a Conn Bari. Perhaps you sould actually do some sound projection work with the other members of the orchestra or quartet. The benefits will come in the future by doing this. Blending is correct but when you are play pp and all the others are playing f to match you, there is definitely something wrong. Wether this something is lack of confidence, lack of sound projection knowledge and or general inexperience, I am not certain. But I would be starting with group sound and tone exercises, playing outside and trying to fill the space with sound. Sorry I can't be of more use.
MBushaw User ID: 9851073	Jun 16th 6:03 PM Have you tried a Rascher Bass/Bari piece? You'll have to grind off about 3/4 inch of the shank to get it to tune on the Yamaha. With the type of music you are playing, you have to change your tonal concept. Yes, they may be bass-driven tunes, but a bari sax from that period did not (usually) have much of a growl. Imagine someone taking a rock guitar setup to a classical guitar gig. Sounds good by himself, but isn't the right sound for the situation. With the Rascher, you will get a very cello-like tone, and your balance should come into line with everyone else. Remember, he who is loudest isn't always bestest.
RS User ID: 0289604	Jun 17th 12:48 PM I'd say that Bootman's right. The other cats aren't holding up their end of the load. As powerful as a bari sax can be it should not be overpowering the other horns when it's played at a moderate volume. Sounds like the other cats need to learn to put a little more air through their horns.
mark m User ID: 1195644	Jun 17th 6:38 PM The other factor not mentioned is the room you're recording in, which can hugely reinforce certain frequency ranges. So, in addition to all the other good suggestions, you might experiment with recording in some different rooms or with altering the acoustics of the room you're in and see if there's a difference. A "brighter" room might bring more balance.
Bari Martin User ID: 0952054	Jun 20th 9:38 PM Don't change your set-up - it works. Rather, try an old-fashioned remedy - a mute. This consists of a piece of semi-rigid plastic foam (not crumbly styrofoam, but that bendable white packing out of a computer box) in the shape of a donut, big enough to fit snug halfway between the last tone hole and the bell flare. The center hole has a diameter equal to half the overall diameter (these dimensions are a starting point, and may have to be adjusted for the desired volume attenuation and for intonation). It can be covered with dark cloth if you wish. This was the solution that old-time players used to muffle their sound without messing around with a set-up that works (of course, they didn't have foam, so their 'donut' was a piece of felt about 1" thick). In other words, if you get used to playing a 'legitimate' set-up, you risk losing that wonderful bari 'grunt' you speak of, and that would be too bad. Not everyone can blow a bari and get a big, projecting sound that sticks out, and this is exactly what you need for most bari work in the real world.
DougR User ID: 9530533	Jun 21st 11:20 AM You only mention the sound as heard from the minidisc. How did it sound to an experienced listner - have you a conductor available?. Even a spare alto player would do - all you want is a description of the overall sound. It is possible that the sound in the room was well balanced. A microphone can provide very misleading results, for instance - if sat on a table huge amounts of extra bass can appear - as though by magic. As the mic picks up structure borne noise. Either use a good shockmount or, quick and dirty, stand the mic on something soft. Simply suspending a mic by its cable can work wonders.