Sax on the Web

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Low-A Bari History

Next 20 Messages

Matt Quinley
User ID: 8722703 Mar 17th 4:19 PM
Can anyone tell me when the Low-A feature began to appear on bari saxes? Is there such thing as, say, a pre-war Conn baritone with the A? Also, I've read in a few places that the low A tends to throw off intonation in the rest of the horn's range. True or not?

paulwl
User ID: 1480824 Mar 17th 7:46 PM
First I know of was on the Selmer Super Balanced Action baritone in the early 50s. Very rare on that horn and on early Mark VIs as well.

I don't think there was another A bari until Buescher (by then part of Selmer) and Conn came out with them in the late 60s. But I could be wrong here.

BrianA
User ID: 1829734 Mar 18th 2:24 AM
It is a wonder just where dumb rumors such as the low A throwing off intonation for the horn..if played by a bari player or a player with chops, the intonation is fine on just about any bari type if the horn is a decent one.

StevenW
User ID: 8722703 Mar 18th 5:56 AM

BrianA - wondering if you've done a side-by-side with an electronic tuner - right up into Altissimo - on a couple different makes?

You are right that a good player compensates for his horns foibles.

Perhaps the current production designs are also better integrated with the low-A (I've a borrowed Yamaha which is quite even intonation-wise, if a bit soul-less, while my personal Bari's are overhauled one with and one without Low-A).

Type of music and style of playing may be a factor in your experience as well. What flys for intonation for Sousa is too loosey-goosey for Grainger.

regards,

StevenW

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 Mar 18th 8:27 AM
The only poor intonation low A story I think has merit is the ones that were produced by inserting a cylindrical section in between the low C curve and the standard low Bb bell. I've seen a Conn and a Signet made this way.

Modern low As are great.

Bootman
User ID: 9495963 Mar 18th 2:16 PM
The only real difference between a Low A and a Bb is projection and power. The Bb will fill the room with sound where as most low A's can't be heard. There are exceptions to this generalisation but they are very rare.

Try a Vintage Conn Chu and listen to how it will under pin the whole band in any situation, loud RnB or Rocks gigs to big band work. There is no substitute for bigness and power on a Bari, it is what we are all looking for in the Bari sax sound.

MusicMan
User ID: 0464054 Mar 18th 4:49 PM
I'm sorry, Bootman, but I'll have to disagree somewhat with your characterisation of low A baris lacking power. I've played a number and have had no problem projecting and yes, even overpowering the entire sax section. I think the right mouthpiece setup is essential, but at least among the big 4 I've played, I've never had a power problem.

I do agree that there is a greater character of sound (warmth, mellowness, etc.) on a vintage low Bb bari (my Big B Buescher for example).

As far as intonation goes, my Buescher was perfect (with the right MP...the wrong one was terrible with it). My new Selmer is perfect and so were the Yani 991 and Yamaha 62's I tried. I did have a Mk. 6 bari (early) the did have a pitch problem, but I grew accostomed to it.

Oh, I'll also have to report the Selmer Signets and Selmer 1256's I've tried (both Buescher 400 derived with the insert in the bell for low A) had pretty even intonation as well.

Tom ed
User ID: 2484284 Mar 18th 7:21 PM
I've found the Yana 901 to have great intonation, but the greater question is what is in tune. Tempered scale? Just tuning? What a slippery area this is. In truth in tune is relative to the the voices and instrumentation being played. Even if a horn plays in tune with an electronic tuner in high flat or sharp keys the thirds and fifths will have to be lipped to sound true. The more extensions a chord has, 7,9,11,13 the denser the harmonic sound becomes and tuning becomes more open. The best thing to do is develop a good ear for harmony. Just had to say it you know. I spent a few years trying to tune and play pedal steel guitar, until I figured out that I wouldn't live long enough to make it work.

StevenW
User ID: 8722703 Mar 18th 8:31 PM

IMHO a low Bb horn takes less massaging to keep in order and certain models can lift the house roof. With my SML Bari (low Bb) I can pass on miking - have even had big band trombone sections whine about too much bari presence!

I've only a couple with Low-A (Yamaha, Dolnet and Selmer) that I play against the group of non-low-A ones (the SML, a Buescher 400 and another Selmer).

All play very well, but I'll side with Bootman, a well set-up power low-Bb horn is hard to beat!

That is until my Bass Sax joins in!

Bootman
User ID: 9495963 Mar 19th 1:57 AM
Interesting piece of info to pass on. I recently tested out the Chu and the Mk Vi side by at a gig. It was an outdoor gig with a loud blues group and 2 mics between 3 horns. The tenor player, using a series II with a T75 and the optimum lig couldn't be heard unless he was on the mic, the alto player using a JK SX90r and a Meyer mpc couldn't be heard,even when on the mic. I swapped between the Mk vi and the Chu.

When using the Chu, the comments from the band, most of whom where on the other side of the stage area which would have been 15m wide at least where from the lead guitarist, standing in front of his amp and furthest from my position on the far wing of the opposite of the stage were, "man that thing is loud". The bass player was loving it because it helped to fatten out the bottom end with him, he said "I love this horn because it has this sound that can be heard across the entire band". The Drummer, no monitors for him either, said that it was easily audible acoustical across the loud stage. He was behind me as well.

When I used the Selmer, all three would look around to see what had happened and where the power had gone form the band. If I got right on mic, and stayed there then the Selmer would cut it. When using the Chu, I would stand back 2" from the mic and still be loud enough, even when soloing.

My mk vi (85,XXX) is a player of a horn, it fires very nicely and is the best mk vi I have ever found. It speaks and sounds where most mk vi bari's fail. The mk vi is loud when you're in front of ther horn but if you get off axis then the sound is wimpy. There is no projection beyond a couple of feet with the mk vi. The Chu will smoke a trumpet player in terms of power and projection throughout the room. This is no mean feat for an instrument that is traditionally lost in the bass guitar and left hand of the piano.

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 Mar 19th 2:23 PM
That sounds like a pretty impressive comparison. A few of us should get decibel sound meters and take a few readings from various distances. I heard they were not too expensive. I'll look around some.

BrianA
User ID: 8109723 Mar 20th 11:58 AM
I have been involved with these sound meters and cannot agree with Rich (Bootman) on these points. During outdoor concert recordings we have been subjected to these readings, all mics were adjusted for individual players in horn section. Furhter, having owned and played many of the different brands, vintages and types, I fully agree with Mojobari about those few old mismade Conn low A baris and the signets but as to most of the others, I have heard many many bari players both on Bb and low A bari saxes that have sounded very stuffy. It is still a conceptual thing and if your concept is stuffy you will sound that way regardless. If your concept is that of projection and full sound you will get it with either horn. The only difference I have found is the direction of the bell which I still think is a very minor thing give that we are all almost always microphoned on gigs.. again, get and use what you are most comfortable with but keep in mind that if you are playing todays music and having to read parts, that crap of trying to stick a foot in the bell is nonesense, especially in an orchestra pit and a part flying by and having all other musicians around you trying to concentrate and music stands to the left and right of you.. that is the reality of being out there and using your horns folks...

Matt Quinley
User ID: 7315283 Mar 20th 12:18 PM
Bootman,

I'm seriously considering buying the 1926 Chu that Dave has for sale on junkdude.com. I have a couple of questions for you:

Do you recommend any particular brand of pad for these horns?

In your opinion, will my JodyJazz "Q" mouthpiece be a good match for the Chu?

Thanks...

Bootman
User ID: 9495963 Mar 20th 2:13 PM
Matt,
The Q works fantastically on my Conn Bari. I have Selmer ring style pads in my Chu and metal resonators. When I say this horn is loud, it fairly rips.
Email me if you want pics and sound samples. rbooth@bigpond.net.au

BrianA, in most case you're exactly right about a low A and a Low Bb horn, but I am only relating what I have experienced in terms of sound and others reactions to this sound. If a drummer notices, I consider no small thing.

I did a 2 Bari gig the other night, the other player was using a mk vi (5 digit serial) and a Lawton, I was using the Chu with the JVW Quantum. The Chu was more than twice as loud and sounded bigger.

George Briscoe
User ID: 1076954 Mar 23rd 3:31 AM
To the best of my knowledge, the first Low "A" baritone saxes were built by Selmer towards the end of the Super Balanced Action period. I've heard that there were only nine of them made. Some folks (including one famous cat I met who's owned his since the 50s) still think that they were "prototype" or "transitional" Mk. VIs. The guys in Paris probably didn't worry about the name at the time.

Listen to Marvin "Doc" Holladay on Stan Kenton's "West Side Story" album to hear one.

As for the Low Bb vs: Low A debate: My opinion is that it's a matter of taste, just like the eternal question of "What's the best mouthpiece?" The answer? "Whatever works best for you!" I started as a clarinet player and then switched to bass clarinet, then I picked up bari in the High School stage band, then worked my way up through tenor, alto and soprano saxes (as well as the flute family and the contra-alto & c.bass clarinets). I'm used to a low "A" bari. I developed one custom hard rubber mouthpiece (based on a New York Meyer) over a 4.5 year period (1980-84) and played it until I went to the next step in 1990 with another custom (based on a 70s vintage Berg Hard Rubber) that has even more projection. For the last twenty years, I've had lead alto players complain about the "lead bari" player. I don't have a cutting sound, but a fat, projecting sound. Yes, the low Bb Conns have a sound that fills the room, versus the Selmers that have a 'directional' sound, but guess what? The Selmer sound works for Johnny Williams, the cat who replaced Charlie Fowlkes in the Basie band!!! I saw the band three times in '82 and '83 (just before the Count passed away) and Johnny nailed me to the back of the balcony (cheap seats!) with a hard rubber mouthpiece and without a microphone!!!! Just a full, fat, rich sound!!!! Without changing any equipment, my sound doubled overnight simply because I UNDERSTOOD the CONCEPT of what could be done!

I've tried my mouthpiece/reed set-up on a Conn and a "The Martin" and all my air went "WOOF!!!" right out of the horn. The trick to the Low "A" and Low "Bb" difference is to use a different mouthpiece for each horn. For the Low "A" baris, I'm a BIG fan of hard rubber with a BIG-ASS TEXAS sized wedge. It gives me great projection, but still keeps the tone warm, without getting 'blatty', like many metals do (and before you jump on me, I play metals on tenor and soprano... OK?).

Hope this is helpful!

George Briscoe
San Antonio, Texas
(Home of LOUD guitar players and BIG big bands)

George Briscoe
User ID: 1076954 Mar 23rd 3:58 AM
P.S: On the Low "A" Selmer Mk.VIs, and all MK.VI saxes, in general, each and every horn is different (they were made by a few guys with hand tools, after all...) the 'voice' of the horn and the intonation varies. It also varies with your mouthpiece, reed, and the player. Each of us has a different mouth, throat and lip. That effects things. As a GENERAL RULE (BIG grain of salt here, gang!), the baris, especially the Low "A" baris, continued to IMPROVE as time went by! They were a 'work in progress' and the scale improved up until the end of production (in about 1978 or 79) [remember: there were no Mk.VII baris or sopranos... those "naked" horns without markings or engravings were still made from the same Mk.VI parts up until the SA80 horns came out. Mark Sevens were only made in altos and tenors.] I've played early Mk.VI baris that looked beautiful, but didn't play great and vice verse.

What it really comes down to, whether you go for a vintage sound or a modern sound, Low "Bb" or Low "A"is are you willing to be a REAL bari player or just a doubler? Are you willing to lug that big ol' lump around and then hang it off of your neck for four hours? Are you willing to struggle and be worn out at the end of the night when the alto players are going out to party? Do you still consider it "your voice" after twenty years of your back getting worse and worse year after year?

If so, then you are one of the few... the proud... the misunderstood and neglected... the foundation of the big band... or the R & B band... or the quartet...

You are...

the BARI PLAYER!!!

HANG IN THERE GANG!!!!!!!!!

George Briscoe :^)>

MojoBari
User ID: 1195644 Mar 23rd 8:22 AM
Yeah, George. Yeah! I can feel your bari pride. Its a beautiful thing!

Merlin
User ID: 8931733 Mar 23rd 9:38 AM
I realize that the there was never a redesigned Mk 7 bari....BUT, I have held in my hands a Selmer bari stamped MKVII on the bell ring.

George Briscoe
User ID: 1502094 Mar 24th 4:31 AM
REALLY!!! Verrrryyy interestinggggg... It really said Mk.VII? Was it otherwise lacking engraving? (Other than the Selmer logo on the bell, of course.) I'm wondering if somebody just did it at the factory until they were told to not do it, or if the USA importer was doing it. Quite strange...

Cashsax
User ID: 9014973 Mar 24th 6:03 AM
I had an unstamped Lo A Selmer Bari mid 70's..no engraving either..sold it to Big west coast dealer I told him it was a VI not realizing it wasn't stamped. He declared it a VI by eyeballing it.

Next 20 Messages

Matt Quinley User ID: 8722703	Mar 17th 4:19 PM Can anyone tell me when the Low-A feature began to appear on bari saxes? Is there such thing as, say, a pre-war Conn baritone with the A? Also, I've read in a few places that the low A tends to throw off intonation in the rest of the horn's range. True or not?
paulwl User ID: 1480824	Mar 17th 7:46 PM First I know of was on the Selmer Super Balanced Action baritone in the early 50s. Very rare on that horn and on early Mark VIs as well. I don't think there was another A bari until Buescher (by then part of Selmer) and Conn came out with them in the late 60s. But I could be wrong here.
BrianA User ID: 1829734	Mar 18th 2:24 AM It is a wonder just where dumb rumors such as the low A throwing off intonation for the horn..if played by a bari player or a player with chops, the intonation is fine on just about any bari type if the horn is a decent one.
StevenW User ID: 8722703	Mar 18th 5:56 AM BrianA - wondering if you've done a side-by-side with an electronic tuner - right up into Altissimo - on a couple different makes? You are right that a good player compensates for his horns foibles. Perhaps the current production designs are also better integrated with the low-A (I've a borrowed Yamaha which is quite even intonation-wise, if a bit soul-less, while my personal Bari's are overhauled one with and one without Low-A). Type of music and style of playing may be a factor in your experience as well. What flys for intonation for Sousa is too loosey-goosey for Grainger. regards, StevenW
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	Mar 18th 8:27 AM The only poor intonation low A story I think has merit is the ones that were produced by inserting a cylindrical section in between the low C curve and the standard low Bb bell. I've seen a Conn and a Signet made this way. Modern low As are great.
Bootman User ID: 9495963	Mar 18th 2:16 PM The only real difference between a Low A and a Bb is projection and power. The Bb will fill the room with sound where as most low A's can't be heard. There are exceptions to this generalisation but they are very rare. Try a Vintage Conn Chu and listen to how it will under pin the whole band in any situation, loud RnB or Rocks gigs to big band work. There is no substitute for bigness and power on a Bari, it is what we are all looking for in the Bari sax sound.
MusicMan User ID: 0464054	Mar 18th 4:49 PM I'm sorry, Bootman, but I'll have to disagree somewhat with your characterisation of low A baris lacking power. I've played a number and have had no problem projecting and yes, even overpowering the entire sax section. I think the right mouthpiece setup is essential, but at least among the big 4 I've played, I've never had a power problem. I do agree that there is a greater character of sound (warmth, mellowness, etc.) on a vintage low Bb bari (my Big B Buescher for example). As far as intonation goes, my Buescher was perfect (with the right MP...the wrong one was terrible with it). My new Selmer is perfect and so were the Yani 991 and Yamaha 62's I tried. I did have a Mk. 6 bari (early) the did have a pitch problem, but I grew accostomed to it. Oh, I'll also have to report the Selmer Signets and Selmer 1256's I've tried (both Buescher 400 derived with the insert in the bell for low A) had pretty even intonation as well.
Tom ed User ID: 2484284	Mar 18th 7:21 PM I've found the Yana 901 to have great intonation, but the greater question is what is in tune. Tempered scale? Just tuning? What a slippery area this is. In truth in tune is relative to the the voices and instrumentation being played. Even if a horn plays in tune with an electronic tuner in high flat or sharp keys the thirds and fifths will have to be lipped to sound true. The more extensions a chord has, 7,9,11,13 the denser the harmonic sound becomes and tuning becomes more open. The best thing to do is develop a good ear for harmony. Just had to say it you know. I spent a few years trying to tune and play pedal steel guitar, until I figured out that I wouldn't live long enough to make it work.
StevenW User ID: 8722703	Mar 18th 8:31 PM IMHO a low Bb horn takes less massaging to keep in order and certain models can lift the house roof. With my SML Bari (low Bb) I can pass on miking - have even had big band trombone sections whine about too much bari presence! I've only a couple with Low-A (Yamaha, Dolnet and Selmer) that I play against the group of non-low-A ones (the SML, a Buescher 400 and another Selmer). All play very well, but I'll side with Bootman, a well set-up power low-Bb horn is hard to beat! That is until my Bass Sax joins in!
Bootman User ID: 9495963	Mar 19th 1:57 AM Interesting piece of info to pass on. I recently tested out the Chu and the Mk Vi side by at a gig. It was an outdoor gig with a loud blues group and 2 mics between 3 horns. The tenor player, using a series II with a T75 and the optimum lig couldn't be heard unless he was on the mic, the alto player using a JK SX90r and a Meyer mpc couldn't be heard,even when on the mic. I swapped between the Mk vi and the Chu. When using the Chu, the comments from the band, most of whom where on the other side of the stage area which would have been 15m wide at least where from the lead guitarist, standing in front of his amp and furthest from my position on the far wing of the opposite of the stage were, "man that thing is loud". The bass player was loving it because it helped to fatten out the bottom end with him, he said "I love this horn because it has this sound that can be heard across the entire band". The Drummer, no monitors for him either, said that it was easily audible acoustical across the loud stage. He was behind me as well. When I used the Selmer, all three would look around to see what had happened and where the power had gone form the band. If I got right on mic, and stayed there then the Selmer would cut it. When using the Chu, I would stand back 2" from the mic and still be loud enough, even when soloing. My mk vi (85,XXX) is a player of a horn, it fires very nicely and is the best mk vi I have ever found. It speaks and sounds where most mk vi bari's fail. The mk vi is loud when you're in front of ther horn but if you get off axis then the sound is wimpy. There is no projection beyond a couple of feet with the mk vi. The Chu will smoke a trumpet player in terms of power and projection throughout the room. This is no mean feat for an instrument that is traditionally lost in the bass guitar and left hand of the piano.
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	Mar 19th 2:23 PM That sounds like a pretty impressive comparison. A few of us should get decibel sound meters and take a few readings from various distances. I heard they were not too expensive. I'll look around some.
BrianA User ID: 8109723	Mar 20th 11:58 AM I have been involved with these sound meters and cannot agree with Rich (Bootman) on these points. During outdoor concert recordings we have been subjected to these readings, all mics were adjusted for individual players in horn section. Furhter, having owned and played many of the different brands, vintages and types, I fully agree with Mojobari about those few old mismade Conn low A baris and the signets but as to most of the others, I have heard many many bari players both on Bb and low A bari saxes that have sounded very stuffy. It is still a conceptual thing and if your concept is stuffy you will sound that way regardless. If your concept is that of projection and full sound you will get it with either horn. The only difference I have found is the direction of the bell which I still think is a very minor thing give that we are all almost always microphoned on gigs.. again, get and use what you are most comfortable with but keep in mind that if you are playing todays music and having to read parts, that crap of trying to stick a foot in the bell is nonesense, especially in an orchestra pit and a part flying by and having all other musicians around you trying to concentrate and music stands to the left and right of you.. that is the reality of being out there and using your horns folks...
Matt Quinley User ID: 7315283	Mar 20th 12:18 PM Bootman, I'm seriously considering buying the 1926 Chu that Dave has for sale on junkdude.com. I have a couple of questions for you: Do you recommend any particular brand of pad for these horns? In your opinion, will my JodyJazz "Q" mouthpiece be a good match for the Chu? Thanks...
Bootman User ID: 9495963	Mar 20th 2:13 PM Matt, The Q works fantastically on my Conn Bari. I have Selmer ring style pads in my Chu and metal resonators. When I say this horn is loud, it fairly rips. Email me if you want pics and sound samples. rbooth@bigpond.net.au BrianA, in most case you're exactly right about a low A and a Low Bb horn, but I am only relating what I have experienced in terms of sound and others reactions to this sound. If a drummer notices, I consider no small thing. I did a 2 Bari gig the other night, the other player was using a mk vi (5 digit serial) and a Lawton, I was using the Chu with the JVW Quantum. The Chu was more than twice as loud and sounded bigger.
George Briscoe User ID: 1076954	Mar 23rd 3:31 AM To the best of my knowledge, the first Low "A" baritone saxes were built by Selmer towards the end of the Super Balanced Action period. I've heard that there were only nine of them made. Some folks (including one famous cat I met who's owned his since the 50s) still think that they were "prototype" or "transitional" Mk. VIs. The guys in Paris probably didn't worry about the name at the time. Listen to Marvin "Doc" Holladay on Stan Kenton's "West Side Story" album to hear one. As for the Low Bb vs: Low A debate: My opinion is that it's a matter of taste, just like the eternal question of "What's the best mouthpiece?" The answer? "Whatever works best for you!" I started as a clarinet player and then switched to bass clarinet, then I picked up bari in the High School stage band, then worked my way up through tenor, alto and soprano saxes (as well as the flute family and the contra-alto & c.bass clarinets). I'm used to a low "A" bari. I developed one custom hard rubber mouthpiece (based on a New York Meyer) over a 4.5 year period (1980-84) and played it until I went to the next step in 1990 with another custom (based on a 70s vintage Berg Hard Rubber) that has even more projection. For the last twenty years, I've had lead alto players complain about the "lead bari" player. I don't have a cutting sound, but a fat, projecting sound. Yes, the low Bb Conns have a sound that fills the room, versus the Selmers that have a 'directional' sound, but guess what? The Selmer sound works for Johnny Williams, the cat who replaced Charlie Fowlkes in the Basie band!!! I saw the band three times in '82 and '83 (just before the Count passed away) and Johnny nailed me to the back of the balcony (cheap seats!) with a hard rubber mouthpiece and without a microphone!!!! Just a full, fat, rich sound!!!! Without changing any equipment, my sound doubled overnight simply because I UNDERSTOOD the CONCEPT of what could be done! I've tried my mouthpiece/reed set-up on a Conn and a "The Martin" and all my air went "WOOF!!!" right out of the horn. The trick to the Low "A" and Low "Bb" difference is to use a different mouthpiece for each horn. For the Low "A" baris, I'm a BIG fan of hard rubber with a BIG-ASS TEXAS sized wedge. It gives me great projection, but still keeps the tone warm, without getting 'blatty', like many metals do (and before you jump on me, I play metals on tenor and soprano... OK?). Hope this is helpful! George Briscoe San Antonio, Texas (Home of LOUD guitar players and BIG big bands)
George Briscoe User ID: 1076954	Mar 23rd 3:58 AM P.S: On the Low "A" Selmer Mk.VIs, and all MK.VI saxes, in general, each and every horn is different (they were made by a few guys with hand tools, after all...) the 'voice' of the horn and the intonation varies. It also varies with your mouthpiece, reed, and the player. Each of us has a different mouth, throat and lip. That effects things. As a GENERAL RULE (BIG grain of salt here, gang!), the baris, especially the Low "A" baris, continued to IMPROVE as time went by! They were a 'work in progress' and the scale improved up until the end of production (in about 1978 or 79) [remember: there were no Mk.VII baris or sopranos... those "naked" horns without markings or engravings were still made from the same Mk.VI parts up until the SA80 horns came out. Mark Sevens were only made in altos and tenors.] I've played early Mk.VI baris that looked beautiful, but didn't play great and vice verse. What it really comes down to, whether you go for a vintage sound or a modern sound, Low "Bb" or Low "A"is are you willing to be a REAL bari player or just a doubler? Are you willing to lug that big ol' lump around and then hang it off of your neck for four hours? Are you willing to struggle and be worn out at the end of the night when the alto players are going out to party? Do you still consider it "your voice" after twenty years of your back getting worse and worse year after year? If so, then you are one of the few... the proud... the misunderstood and neglected... the foundation of the big band... or the R & B band... or the quartet... You are... the BARI PLAYER!!! HANG IN THERE GANG!!!!!!!!! George Briscoe :^)>
MojoBari User ID: 1195644	Mar 23rd 8:22 AM Yeah, George. Yeah! I can feel your bari pride. Its a beautiful thing!
Merlin User ID: 8931733	Mar 23rd 9:38 AM I realize that the there was never a redesigned Mk 7 bari....BUT, I have held in my hands a Selmer bari stamped MKVII on the bell ring.
George Briscoe User ID: 1502094	Mar 24th 4:31 AM REALLY!!! Verrrryyy interestinggggg... It really said Mk.VII? Was it otherwise lacking engraving? (Other than the Selmer logo on the bell, of course.) I'm wondering if somebody just did it at the factory until they were told to not do it, or if the USA importer was doing it. Quite strange...
Cashsax User ID: 9014973	Mar 24th 6:03 AM I had an unstamped Lo A Selmer Bari mid 70's..no engraving either..sold it to Big west coast dealer I told him it was a VI not realizing it wasn't stamped. He declared it a VI by eyeballing it.