Sax on the Web

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Conn 12M question

MPL
User ID: 9126573 Dec 23rd 8:53 PM
Should've put this message here and not in Vintage Saxophones...

I'm in the market for an older Conn 12M and have seen three of these, all within the same relative price range of $1000-$1500, and all relacquered and in varying degrees of playability. Based on the serial numbers, these horns were made in 1950, 1957, and 1959.

What's the diff between these three horns other than age? Were the earlier ones better sounding, or is there no real difference between them?

BrianA
User ID: 1564944 Dec 24th 12:32 AM
The older Conn Bari saxes that are recognized as being "the real thing" are much older than the years you are giving.. the most in demand of the Conn Bari saxes are from about 150,000 up to around 300,000 and the short run around 240,000 to about 250,000 (you can look up specifics on various sites) are extremely desirable transitional models.. good luck..

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 24th 12:42 AM
Also try around the 220K serial range.

MPL
User ID: 9126573 Dec 24th 1:37 AM
Yeah, I know these are less interesting horns...but I have a less interesting budget!

I've seen one of the earlier models you're talking about but the price is really beyond what I should spend right now. Reading between the lines, these three 12Ms are essentially the same horn, correct?

Bootman
User ID: 0756324 Dec 24th 2:38 AM
Yes.
They are non rolled tone hole model 12M's. They are also likely to have nickel Keywork. The sound isn't quite as big or as solid in the post WWII model Conn Baris.

BrinaA
User ID: 1564944 Dec 25th 8:59 AM
NOT to mention the keywork on those newer 12M bari's is nowhere nearly as comfortable nor easy to use and sensitive as the older ones especially the rolled tone hole models.

Stephan
User ID: 1495004 Dec 27th 4:02 PM
Mpl,
Are the 12M ones you have seen low Bb or low A models?

MPL
User ID: 9126573 Dec 27th 11:10 PM
All three are Bb models. I found an earlier 12M, a 271XXX, with rolled tone holes, "lady face" engraving, etc. and got permission from my wife to spend the extra money. It was advertised as a Chu Berry model, but the serial # and photos they sent me clearly indicate it's an early 12M in excellent mechanical shape, and it's been relacquered. So now I have to wait a whole week before it gets here!

Stephan
User ID: 1495004 Dec 30th 4:23 PM
MPL,
If you would have waited a bit longer I could have offered you my 12M low A original laquer and condition never been overhauled and certainly still a maiden.
On how much did you agree on ?

Son of Zorn
User ID: 0164614 Dec 30th 5:09 PM
Stephan, that's an 11M isn't it? 12M doesn't have the low A tube extension.

MPL
User ID: 9126573 Jan 1st 12:53 PM
Waiting is not something I'm known for! The 12M cost me $2300. At any rate, I get a 30-day return period on the horn, and believe me I'll put it through its paces before I give it the thumbs up.

And I think Son of Zorn's right...the rare 11M has the low A. Just for the sake of argument, what's the serial # on your low A horn?

MPL
User ID: 1363014 Jan 7th 2:53 PM
12M update...the horn arrived last week. Looks great at first glance but you can tell that the horn's been banged around a lot. It plays OK but definitely isn't quite right; upon further inspection, I found that the high E tone hole isn't perfectly flat and seems to be missing about twenty degrees' worth of the rolled edge! I'll have a pro look at it and tell me if it can be completely fixed, or if it's beyond help.

I feel like I have to change my right hand angle drastically for the lower stack keys; is the 12M intended for people with bigger hands?!?

MPL
User ID: 0122954 Jan 9th 12:44 AM
Final 12M update: the horn's going back. Corners were seriously cut in the "overhaul" it recently received, and there were leaks galore in the lower stack. For the price I paid, I should've gotten a pristine example.

Thanks to Steve at WorldWideSax for taking a look at this horn, #271431. Caveat emptor!

mutha potamus
User ID: 9252363 Jan 16th 7:12 PM
MPL, my (loaner) 11M is N157215. While it could be due to it's manufacture in Nogales, I don't think this horn is worth the bother...

paulwl
User ID: 0909594 Jan 16th 8:40 PM
What is it about the #240k-250k transitionals? In my (not so) big band there were 3 sax players, and EACH of us had a 12M numbered in the 240s (although theirs were the cool version, very beat lacquer and unengraved...mine's the candy*ss Deco silver plate.)

Stephan
User ID: 0324974 Jan 23rd 2:57 AM
MPL, Son of Zorn,
The serial no. of my 12m or may be 11m is
N 117387 the first number is not well stamped it could also be a 2.
The horn is gold lacquered with nickel plated keys and none rolled toneholes.
It got the tube extension on the bell.

Is my bari now a 12m or a 11m ?

TheBariSaxer
User ID: 0568574 Feb 11th 9:04 PM
I'd stay away from Low A Conns if I were you. All Conn did was extend the bell to make the low A, they didn't reposition any tone holes like they should have. The low register plays very out of tune and the general sound is weaker than a 12M.
The 11M low A baritones are more rare, but don't let yourself be sold on that, they're really pretty bad horns (even worse if you've ever played a good Yanagisawa or Keilwerth). The best Conn baritones, I believe, are the 12Ms (low Bb of course) from the 40's and 50's and the Conn Chu Berry baritone (they need to be in good shape though, obviously. Just because it's a 12M or Chu Berry doesn't automatically mean it's a great horn - like the Selmer Mark VI which I personally think is the most overrated horn that ever existed, but that's another story). BOTTOM LINE: FOR CONNS, GO LOW Bb.

mutha potamus
User ID: 2651734 Feb 24th 3:36 PM
Stephan, you've got an 11M.

Stephan
User ID: 0324974 Feb 25th 4:11 AM
Bari saxer,
thank you for your opinion on the conns.

MP,thank you,too.

Looks like I bought a collectors item without knowing it. I bought it together with a MK6 alto and tenor. The guy played professionly till he droped dead and I got the horns offered from his wife.
I must say the 11 M plays soundwise any Yanagisawa in the ground and a lot of other baris too. The keywork is not smoth running but who would expect that from a conn. The intonation is much better compared with the goldplated Conn 198xxx I had before. This one was nearly not playable at all so I past it on, may be this one was made on a monday who knows but soundwise it was bigger and fatter than the 11M.
The only bari I found so far wich is far better on all subjects is a new Keilwerth even a SA80 compared with the 11 M sounds very thin and small!
But ofcourse the mechanism is much better on the SA80.
My conclusion:
If you like the old conn sound compared with better intonation and perfect mechanism go for a Keilwerth SX90(R)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MPL User ID: 9126573	Dec 23rd 8:53 PM Should've put this message here and not in Vintage Saxophones... I'm in the market for an older Conn 12M and have seen three of these, all within the same relative price range of $1000-$1500, and all relacquered and in varying degrees of playability. Based on the serial numbers, these horns were made in 1950, 1957, and 1959. What's the diff between these three horns other than age? Were the earlier ones better sounding, or is there no real difference between them?
BrianA User ID: 1564944	Dec 24th 12:32 AM The older Conn Bari saxes that are recognized as being "the real thing" are much older than the years you are giving.. the most in demand of the Conn Bari saxes are from about 150,000 up to around 300,000 and the short run around 240,000 to about 250,000 (you can look up specifics on various sites) are extremely desirable transitional models.. good luck..
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 24th 12:42 AM Also try around the 220K serial range.
MPL User ID: 9126573	Dec 24th 1:37 AM Yeah, I know these are less interesting horns...but I have a less interesting budget! I've seen one of the earlier models you're talking about but the price is really beyond what I should spend right now. Reading between the lines, these three 12Ms are essentially the same horn, correct?
Bootman User ID: 0756324	Dec 24th 2:38 AM Yes. They are non rolled tone hole model 12M's. They are also likely to have nickel Keywork. The sound isn't quite as big or as solid in the post WWII model Conn Baris.
BrinaA User ID: 1564944	Dec 25th 8:59 AM NOT to mention the keywork on those newer 12M bari's is nowhere nearly as comfortable nor easy to use and sensitive as the older ones especially the rolled tone hole models.
Stephan User ID: 1495004	Dec 27th 4:02 PM Mpl, Are the 12M ones you have seen low Bb or low A models?
MPL User ID: 9126573	Dec 27th 11:10 PM All three are Bb models. I found an earlier 12M, a 271XXX, with rolled tone holes, "lady face" engraving, etc. and got permission from my wife to spend the extra money. It was advertised as a Chu Berry model, but the serial # and photos they sent me clearly indicate it's an early 12M in excellent mechanical shape, and it's been relacquered. So now I have to wait a whole week before it gets here!
Stephan User ID: 1495004	Dec 30th 4:23 PM MPL, If you would have waited a bit longer I could have offered you my 12M low A original laquer and condition never been overhauled and certainly still a maiden. On how much did you agree on ?
Son of Zorn User ID: 0164614	Dec 30th 5:09 PM Stephan, that's an 11M isn't it? 12M doesn't have the low A tube extension.
MPL User ID: 9126573	Jan 1st 12:53 PM Waiting is not something I'm known for! The 12M cost me $2300. At any rate, I get a 30-day return period on the horn, and believe me I'll put it through its paces before I give it the thumbs up. And I think Son of Zorn's right...the rare 11M has the low A. Just for the sake of argument, what's the serial # on your low A horn?
MPL User ID: 1363014	Jan 7th 2:53 PM 12M update...the horn arrived last week. Looks great at first glance but you can tell that the horn's been banged around a lot. It plays OK but definitely isn't quite right; upon further inspection, I found that the high E tone hole isn't perfectly flat and seems to be missing about twenty degrees' worth of the rolled edge! I'll have a pro look at it and tell me if it can be completely fixed, or if it's beyond help. I feel like I have to change my right hand angle drastically for the lower stack keys; is the 12M intended for people with bigger hands?!?
MPL User ID: 0122954	Jan 9th 12:44 AM Final 12M update: the horn's going back. Corners were seriously cut in the "overhaul" it recently received, and there were leaks galore in the lower stack. For the price I paid, I should've gotten a pristine example. Thanks to Steve at WorldWideSax for taking a look at this horn, #271431. Caveat emptor!
mutha potamus User ID: 9252363	Jan 16th 7:12 PM MPL, my (loaner) 11M is N157215. While it could be due to it's manufacture in Nogales, I don't think this horn is worth the bother...
paulwl User ID: 0909594	Jan 16th 8:40 PM What is it about the #240k-250k transitionals? In my (not so) big band there were 3 sax players, and EACH of us had a 12M numbered in the 240s (although theirs were the cool version, very beat lacquer and unengraved...mine's the candy*ss Deco silver plate.)
Stephan User ID: 0324974	Jan 23rd 2:57 AM MPL, Son of Zorn, The serial no. of my 12m or may be 11m is N 117387 the first number is not well stamped it could also be a 2. The horn is gold lacquered with nickel plated keys and none rolled toneholes. It got the tube extension on the bell. Is my bari now a 12m or a 11m ?
TheBariSaxer User ID: 0568574	Feb 11th 9:04 PM I'd stay away from Low A Conns if I were you. All Conn did was extend the bell to make the low A, they didn't reposition any tone holes like they should have. The low register plays very out of tune and the general sound is weaker than a 12M. The 11M low A baritones are more rare, but don't let yourself be sold on that, they're really pretty bad horns (even worse if you've ever played a good Yanagisawa or Keilwerth). The best Conn baritones, I believe, are the 12Ms (low Bb of course) from the 40's and 50's and the Conn Chu Berry baritone (they need to be in good shape though, obviously. Just because it's a 12M or Chu Berry doesn't automatically mean it's a great horn - like the Selmer Mark VI which I personally think is the most overrated horn that ever existed, but that's another story). BOTTOM LINE: FOR CONNS, GO LOW Bb.
mutha potamus User ID: 2651734	Feb 24th 3:36 PM Stephan, you've got an 11M.
Stephan User ID: 0324974	Feb 25th 4:11 AM Bari saxer, thank you for your opinion on the conns. MP,thank you,too. Looks like I bought a collectors item without knowing it. I bought it together with a MK6 alto and tenor. The guy played professionly till he droped dead and I got the horns offered from his wife. I must say the 11 M plays soundwise any Yanagisawa in the ground and a lot of other baris too. The keywork is not smoth running but who would expect that from a conn. The intonation is much better compared with the goldplated Conn 198xxx I had before. This one was nearly not playable at all so I past it on, may be this one was made on a monday who knows but soundwise it was bigger and fatter than the 11M. The only bari I found so far wich is far better on all subjects is a new Keilwerth even a SA80 compared with the 11 M sounds very thin and small! But ofcourse the mechanism is much better on the SA80. My conclusion: If you like the old conn sound compared with better intonation and perfect mechanism go for a Keilwerth SX90(R)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!