Sax on the Web

Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / alto/bari vs alto/tenor

Next 20 Messages

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 12th 4:48 PM
OK here's a loaded question in the context of this sub-forum. And I know I have to answer this for myself ultimately...

My current horns are a couple of altos and a C-Melody. Call me a beginner, I was probably an intermediate about 20 years ago then put it down 'til now.

I'm contemplating another horn, either a tenor or a baritone. Baritone just sounds so fun, and there are so many tenors around, although a nice tenor I know would be a blast too.

Beyond this, I won't be able to buy another horn for a good long while. So the question - with limited practice time, I'll probably focus on the alto. Would I still be able to pick up the baritone and make some noise from time to time? Is a bari so different that the benefits of my alto time would be pretty much inapplicable to the bari?

I know this is somewhat an opinion thing (all I'm asking for), and that at some point I'll have to get on a bari and see for myself....thanks for any thoughts.

MPL
User ID: 0115944 Mar 12th 6:12 PM
Beware...you might find out that playing baritone is so much fun that you never touch your alto again!

Seriously, a solid baritone will cost you a bundle more than the equivalent tenor. If price isn't an object, I vote for bari because there are relatively few baritone players around. That's why I switched to baritone 13 years ago and I've never looked back.

And it really is more fun to be at the bottom of the band!

I Fallon
User ID: 0694274 Mar 12th 6:23 PM
I love my tenor, but nothing brings a smile to my face like a Bb bari. Get an ugly but sound Noblet bari on eBay, get a good set of pads and regulation and shake some windows! Total cost of about $600. Enjoy. Make sure that it has some sort of case because bari cases and go for the cost of a second hand horn. Walk away if it does not have a neck.

MPL
User ID: 0032624 Mar 12th 6:30 PM
To continue: all other things like mouthpieces/reeds being equal, a good baritone that's properly set up should be able to do anything the equivalent alto can do. So technique things, finger-busters, etc. that you've learned on alto should immediately work on such a baritone.

The biggest translation you'll find is in the embouchure, since the baritone mouthpiece is physically larger. My experience is that my embouchure is a lot more relaxed on baritone. I feel like the bari is easier to control in terms of intonation and keeping the sound centered.

Again, I say...beware. Baritone is a lot more fun to play than 2nd alto in a big band!

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 12th 6:43 PM
Well, how much I spend is a tough question. I sold a bike for $3K, have bought a new alto (silver late Chu) and still have around $2K to invest. My 15-year old wants me to help him buy a first car to work on and drive to school (kids these days...) so we'll see. If only I could get him interested in saxophone...:)

With three kids, a dog, four chickens and two ducks, I don't have money to burn, but I'm afraid of spending too little on a horn. The last thing I want is something that's working against me rather than for me, and I figure my chances are better with a higher-end horn.

I guess if I was a bit more experienced I'd be more venturesome... I've been thinking about something to approximately match my new alto, or maybe a "The Martin", based on what I've read here, but they are indeed way expensive and I don't know whether I can find a nice one for $2k.

Saxquest has a beautiful 10M for $2800. which seems perhaps high for a non-rolled-tonehole model, but it sure looks purty. Well out of my reach at that price...

So, I will read as much as I can here about such things as Noblets and other potential bargains...

I figure I may keep this the rest of my life (I'm halfway there already) if I like it, so if I buy the best I can, I either have a freind for life, or something that's maybe not too hard to sell at some point and get my money back...

Anyway thanks for your thoughts so far; you reinforce the notion of "fun" that jumps out at me just looking at pictures of these things!

MPL
User ID: 0122954 Mar 12th 9:04 PM
Take a look at:

www.junkdude.com
www.worldwidesax.com
www.vintagesax.com

There are a few horns in your price range that should fit the bill nicely.

I recently paid somewhat less than $2800 for my older 12M which looks a little worse for the wear but does have rolled toneholes and no front F key.

The Martin Baritone is a most excellent horn! You ought to be able to find a cherry Martin for $2K, but you'll have to look hard! Good luck and happy hunting.

greasehonkey
User ID: 1801454 Mar 12th 9:20 PM

I got to put in my vote for vintage.Conns,of course ,but look at some Bueschers too. Undervalued IMO.

Bought a silver True Tone about 5years back for less than 1K ,and I wouldn`t trade it for any "high end" horn. Well,yeah I would ,but then sell it ,buy two vintages and maybe a case of good bourbon.

mark m.
User ID: 0791694 Mar 12th 11:37 PM
Just to clarify, "high-end" was probably not the appropriate term, and just kind of slipped out. I really mean the better of the vintage horns, such as are being discussed, be they Beuschers or whatever. I definitely appreciate all recommendations and opinions!

30 years ago I worked with a skinny old guy on the railroad who always talked to me about Beuschers, way before I ever picked up a sax or even thought about it. I never heard him play, but just knowing him I knew he loved his horn. Funny what mystique surrounds certain names, and how something like that can stick in your brain somewhere for so long...

I've been watching vintagesax (where I just bought my alto - the 237xxx Chu), just checked in with junkdude today, and hadn't checked out worldwidesax before - thanks much.

Tom ed
User ID: 2484284 Mar 13th 10:39 PM
I play the tenor and bari and have so much fun with them my "the martin alto" just sits in its case. Just wanted to toss into the mix that Yamaha 52s are on sale in most areas until the end of the month. Our local dealer has them for $2600.00 which is a heck of a buy, you might check your dealer out or look at one of the mail order houses. I like the Yanagisawa 901 better but the Yamaha is a fine horn and will last for years and has a lot of bang for the buck. Vintage horns are great but good vinage baritones can be hard to find and can cost more than the Yamaha 52 and Yanagisawa 901 do new. If you go vintage the Martins are great horns. Also some of the usa Selmer horns are based on the old Buescher designs,and seem to cheap on ebay.

MPL
User ID: 0122954 Mar 13th 11:00 PM
After hunting around for several months, the vintage baritones I've seen that are more expensive than the Yamaha 52s include the Mark VI baris, both with and without the low A. Now, a King Super 20 bari is a rare beast and could set you back $3K, and is quite a find - Gayle at vintagesax.com has the only one I've ever seen for sale. And the SML baritones have a cult following with a price tag to match.

On the other hand, working down my short list price-wise, the less expensive but well-respected vintage baris include the Conn 12M and "Chu" horns, Martins of various types, and Buescher Aristocrats. The Selmer USA baritones often seen on eBay are indeed copies of the early 60s Buescher 400 - some say they play great. I haven't tried one myself. Any of these horns, in great playing shape, can be had for less than the $2600 you'd pay for the brand new Yamaha 52. I haven't seen a Buescher for much more than $2K, although I haven't seen a silver one either.

There are also the Dolnet baris, King Zephyrs...the list goes on.

Bootman
User ID: 9495963 Mar 13th 11:20 PM
Go for a Chu of the Late 20's time period in silver plate, this is simply the scariest Bari I have ever played or owned. The 5 digit mk vi low A I have here, which in itstelf is one of those rare mk vi's that really plays is only a shadow of this Chu Baritone. I have owned Yani's, Martins and later 12M's all of which have been good but not like this Chu. This is the horn I will hold onto to the very end.

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 14th 11:31 AM
Bootman, that's what I would most love. Hard to find and $$$ but I will keep looking. If I can't find this, I'll need to figure out what are the next options.

I don't know anything about Dolnet (heck there's lot's I don't know anything about) but there are a number of baritones around... The later 12M's I've found are without rolled toneholes.

On a side note I just received my silver 237xxx Chu alto (from Gayle) last night. What a sweet little horn! I also have a '24 silver Conn C-melody, so a silver Chu bari would be the dad of the family...

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 14th 12:18 PM
BTW, what about the "preChu" (pre-Chewed?) baris? I know how similar my '24 C-Mel is to my '30 Alto, and I'm comfortable with both of these. Would a Conn bari from the early 20's fall into the same bag, similar sound, acceptable ergonomics/mechanicals?

Dr G
User ID: 0916684 Mar 14th 1:20 PM
Another undervalued horn is the Buescher TrueTone bari - look for numbers greater than about 200,000. I got one from Gayle (VintageSax.com) that any of my friend's bari's (Mulligan-era Conn, Selmer, Yani). Great horn for under $1500!

stevew
User ID: 1098134 Mar 14th 2:18 PM
My Yani B901 was $2995 from Matthews in Holland, including VAT - for export to the US you can take about 20% off that, add $100 for shipping, it's about $2500. That's a brand new pristine, pro quality horn which goes from Low A to top F#, subtone to wail throughout the range, includes good case and mouthpiece. I know the appeal of vintage horns but baris especially tend to get battered and abused because of their size and weight, and are expensive to fix. For a trouble free life of bari pleasure, played in tune, this is one way to go.....

Bootman
User ID: 9495963 Mar 14th 3:04 PM
That is a great price for a Yani but in the end it is still a Yani and when compared to the raw power of my Chu, the Yani falls well below. For example when the drummer say's "I love the sound of that horn, (pointing to the Chu Baritone) it is the only Bari that you can hear on stage when it is playing" (meaning that he can hear acoustically across the stage in an RnB group). The mk vi low A was loud for 3 feet and required a mic. Every Yani and other modern bari I have put up against this particular Chu is woefully inadequate in terms of sound and bottom end.

I have owned later 12M's as well but the sound of these was not in the same league as the Chu either. The Mulligan era silver plated Bari's are worth chasing as are the 200K plus Buescher Baritones. Try a silver plate one if you can find one.

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 14th 5:29 PM
Beyond "raw power" and projection, how do the tonal qualities of some of these horns differ? Are they as varied as their tenor and alto counterparts?

Tom ed
User ID: 2484284 Mar 14th 5:33 PM
Say Mark you didn't say if you have tryed a bari or not. You might want to borrow one or rent a bari to try for awhile before you buy. A lot of guys don't like to play them because of the weight and size. It's a lot of horn to haul around, and a lot to have hanging around your neck for a couple of hours. Also if you are the only bari player in a band you will be heard and can't hide behind the lead alto player. The really cool thing about bari is that they put you into the real heart of the music. Your right down there in the primary rhythms and chords of a song. There is something about feeling those big chords roll up though your feet and seat. I guess that is probably the best reason to play one, just for the rumble and roar.

MPL
User ID: 0032624 Mar 14th 6:24 PM
I've played a Yamaha 61 and the Conn 12M.

The 61 was a great horn because it was practically brand new. Even intonation up and down, very clean sound. Projection was OK using a Berg with Plasticover reeds.

The 12M has a boomy, burry sound that requires some effort to control if you want "small." But projection is fantastic - you can feel the horn resonating and the walls vibrating when you're at full volume - and the 12M really likes to be played at full volume. It's kind of like the "muscle car" of baritones! Ergonomics are a little funky and I'm still getting used to the horn.

Tom ed brings up a good point...if you have a bad back, you'll definitely need a harness/sling, a stand, or some other kind of weight-bearing device to help hold the critter up on long gigs.

Mark M.
User ID: 8973393 Mar 14th 6:34 PM
Thanks for the many thoughts and considerations. I haven't played a bari, which might explain some of my questions.

There are two contexts in which I will mostly use this, at least in the short term. One is in a regular jam with freinds in a fairly controlled situation, music ranging from freeform jazz to quasi-rock of some sort. In this context projection and power are useful, though probably secondary to tonal quality, flexibility and character.

The second is I'll use this in my home studio where I do some multi-tracking. In this context, projection has no real bearing.

I don't like to talk about my back, don't want to jinx anything... but I won't be in a situation where I can't put it down if I want.

What's it cost to rent a bari? Maybe I could rent one for our jam this weekend - that would be a blast and informative at the same time.

Next 20 Messages

Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 12th 4:48 PM OK here's a loaded question in the context of this sub-forum. And I know I have to answer this for myself ultimately... My current horns are a couple of altos and a C-Melody. Call me a beginner, I was probably an intermediate about 20 years ago then put it down 'til now. I'm contemplating another horn, either a tenor or a baritone. Baritone just sounds so fun, and there are so many tenors around, although a nice tenor I know would be a blast too. Beyond this, I won't be able to buy another horn for a good long while. So the question - with limited practice time, I'll probably focus on the alto. Would I still be able to pick up the baritone and make some noise from time to time? Is a bari so different that the benefits of my alto time would be pretty much inapplicable to the bari? I know this is somewhat an opinion thing (all I'm asking for), and that at some point I'll have to get on a bari and see for myself....thanks for any thoughts.
MPL User ID: 0115944	Mar 12th 6:12 PM Beware...you might find out that playing baritone is so much fun that you never touch your alto again! Seriously, a solid baritone will cost you a bundle more than the equivalent tenor. If price isn't an object, I vote for bari because there are relatively few baritone players around. That's why I switched to baritone 13 years ago and I've never looked back. And it really is more fun to be at the bottom of the band!
I Fallon User ID: 0694274	Mar 12th 6:23 PM I love my tenor, but nothing brings a smile to my face like a Bb bari. Get an ugly but sound Noblet bari on eBay, get a good set of pads and regulation and shake some windows! Total cost of about $600. Enjoy. Make sure that it has some sort of case because bari cases and go for the cost of a second hand horn. Walk away if it does not have a neck.
MPL User ID: 0032624	Mar 12th 6:30 PM To continue: all other things like mouthpieces/reeds being equal, a good baritone that's properly set up should be able to do anything the equivalent alto can do. So technique things, finger-busters, etc. that you've learned on alto should immediately work on such a baritone. The biggest translation you'll find is in the embouchure, since the baritone mouthpiece is physically larger. My experience is that my embouchure is a lot more relaxed on baritone. I feel like the bari is easier to control in terms of intonation and keeping the sound centered. Again, I say...beware. Baritone is a lot more fun to play than 2nd alto in a big band!
Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 12th 6:43 PM Well, how much I spend is a tough question. I sold a bike for $3K, have bought a new alto (silver late Chu) and still have around $2K to invest. My 15-year old wants me to help him buy a first car to work on and drive to school (kids these days...) so we'll see. If only I could get him interested in saxophone...:) With three kids, a dog, four chickens and two ducks, I don't have money to burn, but I'm afraid of spending too little on a horn. The last thing I want is something that's working against me rather than for me, and I figure my chances are better with a higher-end horn. I guess if I was a bit more experienced I'd be more venturesome... I've been thinking about something to approximately match my new alto, or maybe a "The Martin", based on what I've read here, but they are indeed way expensive and I don't know whether I can find a nice one for $2k. Saxquest has a beautiful 10M for $2800. which seems perhaps high for a non-rolled-tonehole model, but it sure looks purty. Well out of my reach at that price... So, I will read as much as I can here about such things as Noblets and other potential bargains... I figure I may keep this the rest of my life (I'm halfway there already) if I like it, so if I buy the best I can, I either have a freind for life, or something that's maybe not too hard to sell at some point and get my money back... Anyway thanks for your thoughts so far; you reinforce the notion of "fun" that jumps out at me just looking at pictures of these things!
MPL User ID: 0122954	Mar 12th 9:04 PM Take a look at: www.junkdude.com www.worldwidesax.com www.vintagesax.com There are a few horns in your price range that should fit the bill nicely. I recently paid somewhat less than $2800 for my older 12M which looks a little worse for the wear but does have rolled toneholes and no front F key. The Martin Baritone is a most excellent horn! You ought to be able to find a cherry Martin for $2K, but you'll have to look hard! Good luck and happy hunting.
greasehonkey User ID: 1801454	Mar 12th 9:20 PM I got to put in my vote for vintage.Conns,of course ,but look at some Bueschers too. Undervalued IMO. Bought a silver True Tone about 5years back for less than 1K ,and I wouldn`t trade it for any "high end" horn. Well,yeah I would ,but then sell it ,buy two vintages and maybe a case of good bourbon.
mark m. User ID: 0791694	Mar 12th 11:37 PM Just to clarify, "high-end" was probably not the appropriate term, and just kind of slipped out. I really mean the better of the vintage horns, such as are being discussed, be they Beuschers or whatever. I definitely appreciate all recommendations and opinions! 30 years ago I worked with a skinny old guy on the railroad who always talked to me about Beuschers, way before I ever picked up a sax or even thought about it. I never heard him play, but just knowing him I knew he loved his horn. Funny what mystique surrounds certain names, and how something like that can stick in your brain somewhere for so long... I've been watching vintagesax (where I just bought my alto - the 237xxx Chu), just checked in with junkdude today, and hadn't checked out worldwidesax before - thanks much.
Tom ed User ID: 2484284	Mar 13th 10:39 PM I play the tenor and bari and have so much fun with them my "the martin alto" just sits in its case. Just wanted to toss into the mix that Yamaha 52s are on sale in most areas until the end of the month. Our local dealer has them for $2600.00 which is a heck of a buy, you might check your dealer out or look at one of the mail order houses. I like the Yanagisawa 901 better but the Yamaha is a fine horn and will last for years and has a lot of bang for the buck. Vintage horns are great but good vinage baritones can be hard to find and can cost more than the Yamaha 52 and Yanagisawa 901 do new. If you go vintage the Martins are great horns. Also some of the usa Selmer horns are based on the old Buescher designs,and seem to cheap on ebay.
MPL User ID: 0122954	Mar 13th 11:00 PM After hunting around for several months, the vintage baritones I've seen that are more expensive than the Yamaha 52s include the Mark VI baris, both with and without the low A. Now, a King Super 20 bari is a rare beast and could set you back $3K, and is quite a find - Gayle at vintagesax.com has the only one I've ever seen for sale. And the SML baritones have a cult following with a price tag to match. On the other hand, working down my short list price-wise, the less expensive but well-respected vintage baris include the Conn 12M and "Chu" horns, Martins of various types, and Buescher Aristocrats. The Selmer USA baritones often seen on eBay are indeed copies of the early 60s Buescher 400 - some say they play great. I haven't tried one myself. Any of these horns, in great playing shape, can be had for less than the $2600 you'd pay for the brand new Yamaha 52. I haven't seen a Buescher for much more than $2K, although I haven't seen a silver one either. There are also the Dolnet baris, King Zephyrs...the list goes on.
Bootman User ID: 9495963	Mar 13th 11:20 PM Go for a Chu of the Late 20's time period in silver plate, this is simply the scariest Bari I have ever played or owned. The 5 digit mk vi low A I have here, which in itstelf is one of those rare mk vi's that really plays is only a shadow of this Chu Baritone. I have owned Yani's, Martins and later 12M's all of which have been good but not like this Chu. This is the horn I will hold onto to the very end.
Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 14th 11:31 AM Bootman, that's what I would most love. Hard to find and $$$ but I will keep looking. If I can't find this, I'll need to figure out what are the next options. I don't know anything about Dolnet (heck there's lot's I don't know anything about) but there are a number of baritones around... The later 12M's I've found are without rolled toneholes. On a side note I just received my silver 237xxx Chu alto (from Gayle) last night. What a sweet little horn! I also have a '24 silver Conn C-melody, so a silver Chu bari would be the dad of the family...
Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 14th 12:18 PM BTW, what about the "preChu" (pre-Chewed?) baris? I know how similar my '24 C-Mel is to my '30 Alto, and I'm comfortable with both of these. Would a Conn bari from the early 20's fall into the same bag, similar sound, acceptable ergonomics/mechanicals?
Dr G User ID: 0916684	Mar 14th 1:20 PM Another undervalued horn is the Buescher TrueTone bari - look for numbers greater than about 200,000. I got one from Gayle (VintageSax.com) that any of my friend's bari's (Mulligan-era Conn, Selmer, Yani). Great horn for under $1500!
stevew User ID: 1098134	Mar 14th 2:18 PM My Yani B901 was $2995 from Matthews in Holland, including VAT - for export to the US you can take about 20% off that, add $100 for shipping, it's about $2500. That's a brand new pristine, pro quality horn which goes from Low A to top F#, subtone to wail throughout the range, includes good case and mouthpiece. I know the appeal of vintage horns but baris especially tend to get battered and abused because of their size and weight, and are expensive to fix. For a trouble free life of bari pleasure, played in tune, this is one way to go.....
Bootman User ID: 9495963	Mar 14th 3:04 PM That is a great price for a Yani but in the end it is still a Yani and when compared to the raw power of my Chu, the Yani falls well below. For example when the drummer say's "I love the sound of that horn, (pointing to the Chu Baritone) it is the only Bari that you can hear on stage when it is playing" (meaning that he can hear acoustically across the stage in an RnB group). The mk vi low A was loud for 3 feet and required a mic. Every Yani and other modern bari I have put up against this particular Chu is woefully inadequate in terms of sound and bottom end. I have owned later 12M's as well but the sound of these was not in the same league as the Chu either. The Mulligan era silver plated Bari's are worth chasing as are the 200K plus Buescher Baritones. Try a silver plate one if you can find one.
Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 14th 5:29 PM Beyond "raw power" and projection, how do the tonal qualities of some of these horns differ? Are they as varied as their tenor and alto counterparts?
Tom ed User ID: 2484284	Mar 14th 5:33 PM Say Mark you didn't say if you have tryed a bari or not. You might want to borrow one or rent a bari to try for awhile before you buy. A lot of guys don't like to play them because of the weight and size. It's a lot of horn to haul around, and a lot to have hanging around your neck for a couple of hours. Also if you are the only bari player in a band you will be heard and can't hide behind the lead alto player. The really cool thing about bari is that they put you into the real heart of the music. Your right down there in the primary rhythms and chords of a song. There is something about feeling those big chords roll up though your feet and seat. I guess that is probably the best reason to play one, just for the rumble and roar.
MPL User ID: 0032624	Mar 14th 6:24 PM I've played a Yamaha 61 and the Conn 12M. The 61 was a great horn because it was practically brand new. Even intonation up and down, very clean sound. Projection was OK using a Berg with Plasticover reeds. The 12M has a boomy, burry sound that requires some effort to control if you want "small." But projection is fantastic - you can feel the horn resonating and the walls vibrating when you're at full volume - and the 12M really likes to be played at full volume. It's kind of like the "muscle car" of baritones! Ergonomics are a little funky and I'm still getting used to the horn. Tom ed brings up a good point...if you have a bad back, you'll definitely need a harness/sling, a stand, or some other kind of weight-bearing device to help hold the critter up on long gigs.
Mark M. User ID: 8973393	Mar 14th 6:34 PM Thanks for the many thoughts and considerations. I haven't played a bari, which might explain some of my questions. There are two contexts in which I will mostly use this, at least in the short term. One is in a regular jam with freinds in a fairly controlled situation, music ranging from freeform jazz to quasi-rock of some sort. In this context projection and power are useful, though probably secondary to tonal quality, flexibility and character. The second is I'll use this in my home studio where I do some multi-tracking. In this context, projection has no real bearing. I don't like to talk about my back, don't want to jinx anything... but I won't be in a situation where I can't put it down if I want. What's it cost to rent a bari? Maybe I could rent one for our jam this weekend - that would be a blast and informative at the same time.