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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Developing low end control

Next 20 Messages

Noel
User ID: 9955583 Jan 27th 5:03 PM
I just started playing bari in big band. I have played bari for a while but mostly in combo. Sometimes I seem to have trouble hitting a single low note "punch" type of note. I especially have problems when on ballads they have me playing eighth not phrases that start on a low at a ppp dynamic. What do I need to help myself?

MPL
User ID: 0867924 Jan 27th 6:16 PM
First, make sure the horn isn't leaking somewhere. The horn's got to be right before you can attack the lowest notes at a soft dynamic level.

Second, have your airstream ready to go at the instant you tongue the first note in the line, and keep the air flowing at the same speed throughout. If you start the line with a "burst" of air and then pull back, chances are the intonation will wander. But make sure the horn is tight first!

super20dan
User ID: 9635043 Jan 27th 6:42 PM
my secret to doing this is useing a mpc with a small tip.it greatly eases the delicate attacks needed to get these notes out. a leak free horn is also a must

Noel
User ID: 9955583 Jan 30th 10:31 AM
Well...I just got my horn looked at and it was pretty out of wack. I went over to the practice rooms and tested out the bottom again. I actually have pretty good control in the lower range when my horn is functioning. But low end control seems to be a problem for many sax players who switch to bari.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Jan 30th 10:56 AM
Noel,I have actually found bari bottom end to be easier than tenor when played out loud.Ofcourse,leak free horn and good mpc is a must.

Noel
User ID: 9955583 Jan 30th 11:00 AM
I definately agree with both statements. But how often do you see or hear a tenor part that has to punch out low notes consistently? Moanin' just wouldn't be the same if player by a tenor.

J. Calhoun
User ID: 1244314 Jan 30th 12:19 PM
Do not drop your jaw or loosen the embouchure for low notes.

MPL
User ID: 0867924 Jan 30th 2:16 PM
Agreed. If your embouchure is TOO relaxed, it could lead to the same lack of low-end response you mentioned earlier.

Some players have a habit of moving the jaw around when moving to different registers on the horn, or when subtoning. That could also cause response problems. Everything's got to be "set" but not "locked," with the latter meaning that the jaw and lips are so stiff and tense that they choke off the ability of the reed to vibrate, and thus the sound. "Set" implies that all parts of the embouchure are in place, firmly held but not tightly gripped, and just waiting for the airstream. Make sense?

MusicMan
User ID: 0108854 Jan 30th 4:41 PM
What everybody else has said...plus my instructor's mantra: Practice long tones

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Jan 30th 4:49 PM
It is really all about air control. Big sound equals air support.

stevew
User ID: 3849244 Jan 30th 5:20 PM
When my bari arrived (and it is the only one I have ever played or owned), I was astonished at the ease with which I could play softly especially at the bottom. It is a B901 that came typically well set up and it actually prompted me to have my other horns checked over! The only thing I find with the bari is I can sometimes be throwing so much air through it, I forget what I am playing and run out of air before I am supposed to finish the note. Otherwise, its a total blast to play. I use either the stock Yani piece or a Jody Jazz 8 with Vandoren 2 or 2.5 or Rico JS 2H reeds and it really is a breeze.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Jan 30th 7:15 PM
I´ve seen many documents about the old masters like Webster,Rollins,Gordon etc. and noticed that they moved their jaw a lot when they played,Rollins still does.Newer players like Brecker etc. don´t move their jaw much but its not necessarily any better or "right" than what the old masters did.

Grantibibitus
User ID: 9391453 Jan 31st 11:40 AM
There's no secret to nailing those low notes. All you have to do is pick one that you consistently have trouble getting to speak (for me the hardest is low C), and then devote the next hour to it. Play that note and only that note every which way you can: breath attack, tongued, different volume levels, crescendos and decrescendos, short tones, long tones, etc. Do it until you can start it at a low volume level (say piano)with a breath attack (just air, no tongue) twenty times in a row perfectly. Often I will practice starting the note at low volume with my tongue a few times then try with a breath attack. Then I'll repeat that- start it two or three times with my tongue then again with a breath attack. I do this until I start feeling comfortable with the breath attack then work on it with breath attack exclusively for a few minutes then revert back to tonging. The tonging reminds me how to set my air support so I'm not just heaving air in order to get it to speak.

Another little gem I stumbled upon is to go get a Charlie Parker Omnibook in the key of C (blue cover). I bought one in college by mistake thinking that the blue cover was nicer looking than the yellow that everyone seemed to have. Lol. Anyhow, use it for sightreading practice. Don't transpose, just play it where it is. Every time it drops below your range (A and below (I have no low A)) just play those notes an octave up. Don't move the whole phrase up, only the notes that are too low. Have hope, it's not going to be easy. Making those jumps between Bb and A will automatically train you to blow through the lines and set your embechure in a way that you can hit notes in the middle register or the lower register without adjusting your mouth or airstream. Your tone will develop greatly and you'll find that you're playing quite a bit louder on average. Down the road you can use the book to practice transposing from concert pitch on sight. (Believe me, it is imperative that you learn to do this. You'll thank me later.)

Good luck.
-Grant

MPL
User ID: 0867924 Jan 31st 2:30 PM
Keeping the jaw "set" (as opposed to "movable", as described by Subtone Sam above) is most important when you're playing in a section because it makes you keep the center of your tone. When you move your jaw around or change tongue position inside your mouth, you can get all kinds of cool tone-changing effects - none of which really helps when you're trying to blend in a section.

On the other hand, if you're soloing or playing in a small group setting, keeping the jaw "set" is not anywhere as important...especially if you're trying to get a personal sound. Then you should feel free to change whatever you think is necessary, keeping intonation, etc. in mind as you do.

Before I took any lessons, I played tenor with an awful embouchure - lots of biting the reed - because I wanted a Stan Getz sound, and that was one way to get it. If I needed to play lower than G or so, I had to move my jaw around to find where the horn would speak...and suddenly I didn't sound so Getzian anymore, and in a section those lower notes (like you get when you play 2nd tenor in a big band) would suddenly jump out as BLATTs. My teacher hipped me to the "set" jaw concept and lo and behold, my tone got bigger, stayed centered, and low notes weren't a problem. And I found other ways to emulate the Getz sound.

J. Calhoun
User ID: 1244314 Jan 31st 5:10 PM
I wasn't talking about whether you should generally keep the jaw fixed or moveable. I was pointing out that dropping the jaw and loosening the embouchure in order to get low notes out (as commonly done by players without a lot of experience) typically results in a BLATT. You can avoid dropping/loosening the jaw for low notes within the context of a fairly rigid and consistent jaw position, or within the context of a fairly flexible and adjustable jaw position.

MPL
User ID: 0867924 Jan 31st 6:34 PM
Agreed, with reservations. I still contend that, for inexperienced players, a flexible and adjustable jaw position (as opposed to consistent) will lead to intonation difficulties and tone center issues down the road.

paulwl
User ID: 1891784 Feb 1st 11:46 AM
The trouble with this advice lies in how it's usually taught. It's a "negative" technique: you're told what you shouldn't do, but not what you should, to get the note.

So you don't drop your jaw, don't get the note, and don't get any more hints from the teacher. What then?

Noel
User ID: 9955583 Feb 1st 12:58 PM
My instructor up here is amazing. I still have some problems with moving my jaw but we have been working on not moving it. We are doing stop tounging and practicing having everything in place before I remove the toungue from the reed. Has anyone ever tried this before: Take your top lip off of the mouthpiece so it is flared up and your teeth are showing and play from top to bottom. It is the most deranged looking thing I have ever seen but it really helped me to understand embochure pressure more.

Subtone Sam
User ID: 1432154 Feb 1st 6:03 PM
MPL,I agree with the no jaw movement/section thing.Jaw movement or not,one should be able to produce any note in either way.One thing I do,is that I move my jaw back when subtoning;I learned this way.

MPL
User ID: 0471064 Feb 1st 6:19 PM
Yep, and that's the way my teacher taught me to subtone "correctly."

And there are a number of ways to teach the "set" in a positive way. I usually try to have the player watch him/herself in a mirror during practice, and think of keeping the jaw in a set, steady position (instead of not moving) when tonguing. That usually does the trick, especially with younger students who may not be aware of all that stuff moving around when tonguing the reed.

Noel, I'm going to try that teeth-bared technique myself and see what it teaches me! I'm always on the lookout for good ideas to use with students.

Next 20 Messages

Noel User ID: 9955583	Jan 27th 5:03 PM I just started playing bari in big band. I have played bari for a while but mostly in combo. Sometimes I seem to have trouble hitting a single low note "punch" type of note. I especially have problems when on ballads they have me playing eighth not phrases that start on a low at a ppp dynamic. What do I need to help myself?
MPL User ID: 0867924	Jan 27th 6:16 PM First, make sure the horn isn't leaking somewhere. The horn's got to be right before you can attack the lowest notes at a soft dynamic level. Second, have your airstream ready to go at the instant you tongue the first note in the line, and keep the air flowing at the same speed throughout. If you start the line with a "burst" of air and then pull back, chances are the intonation will wander. But make sure the horn is tight first!
super20dan User ID: 9635043	Jan 27th 6:42 PM my secret to doing this is useing a mpc with a small tip.it greatly eases the delicate attacks needed to get these notes out. a leak free horn is also a must
Noel User ID: 9955583	Jan 30th 10:31 AM Well...I just got my horn looked at and it was pretty out of wack. I went over to the practice rooms and tested out the bottom again. I actually have pretty good control in the lower range when my horn is functioning. But low end control seems to be a problem for many sax players who switch to bari.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Jan 30th 10:56 AM Noel,I have actually found bari bottom end to be easier than tenor when played out loud.Ofcourse,leak free horn and good mpc is a must.
Noel User ID: 9955583	Jan 30th 11:00 AM I definately agree with both statements. But how often do you see or hear a tenor part that has to punch out low notes consistently? Moanin' just wouldn't be the same if player by a tenor.
J. Calhoun User ID: 1244314	Jan 30th 12:19 PM Do not drop your jaw or loosen the embouchure for low notes.
MPL User ID: 0867924	Jan 30th 2:16 PM Agreed. If your embouchure is TOO relaxed, it could lead to the same lack of low-end response you mentioned earlier. Some players have a habit of moving the jaw around when moving to different registers on the horn, or when subtoning. That could also cause response problems. Everything's got to be "set" but not "locked," with the latter meaning that the jaw and lips are so stiff and tense that they choke off the ability of the reed to vibrate, and thus the sound. "Set" implies that all parts of the embouchure are in place, firmly held but not tightly gripped, and just waiting for the airstream. Make sense?
MusicMan User ID: 0108854	Jan 30th 4:41 PM What everybody else has said...plus my instructor's mantra: Practice long tones
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Jan 30th 4:49 PM It is really all about air control. Big sound equals air support.
stevew User ID: 3849244	Jan 30th 5:20 PM When my bari arrived (and it is the only one I have ever played or owned), I was astonished at the ease with which I could play softly especially at the bottom. It is a B901 that came typically well set up and it actually prompted me to have my other horns checked over! The only thing I find with the bari is I can sometimes be throwing so much air through it, I forget what I am playing and run out of air before I am supposed to finish the note. Otherwise, its a total blast to play. I use either the stock Yani piece or a Jody Jazz 8 with Vandoren 2 or 2.5 or Rico JS 2H reeds and it really is a breeze.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Jan 30th 7:15 PM I´ve seen many documents about the old masters like Webster,Rollins,Gordon etc. and noticed that they moved their jaw a lot when they played,Rollins still does.Newer players like Brecker etc. don´t move their jaw much but its not necessarily any better or "right" than what the old masters did.
Grantibibitus User ID: 9391453	Jan 31st 11:40 AM There's no secret to nailing those low notes. All you have to do is pick one that you consistently have trouble getting to speak (for me the hardest is low C), and then devote the next hour to it. Play that note and only that note every which way you can: breath attack, tongued, different volume levels, crescendos and decrescendos, short tones, long tones, etc. Do it until you can start it at a low volume level (say piano)with a breath attack (just air, no tongue) twenty times in a row perfectly. Often I will practice starting the note at low volume with my tongue a few times then try with a breath attack. Then I'll repeat that- start it two or three times with my tongue then again with a breath attack. I do this until I start feeling comfortable with the breath attack then work on it with breath attack exclusively for a few minutes then revert back to tonging. The tonging reminds me how to set my air support so I'm not just heaving air in order to get it to speak. Another little gem I stumbled upon is to go get a Charlie Parker Omnibook in the key of C (blue cover). I bought one in college by mistake thinking that the blue cover was nicer looking than the yellow that everyone seemed to have. Lol. Anyhow, use it for sightreading practice. Don't transpose, just play it where it is. Every time it drops below your range (A and below (I have no low A)) just play those notes an octave up. Don't move the whole phrase up, only the notes that are too low. Have hope, it's not going to be easy. Making those jumps between Bb and A will automatically train you to blow through the lines and set your embechure in a way that you can hit notes in the middle register or the lower register without adjusting your mouth or airstream. Your tone will develop greatly and you'll find that you're playing quite a bit louder on average. Down the road you can use the book to practice transposing from concert pitch on sight. (Believe me, it is imperative that you learn to do this. You'll thank me later.) Good luck. -Grant
MPL User ID: 0867924	Jan 31st 2:30 PM Keeping the jaw "set" (as opposed to "movable", as described by Subtone Sam above) is most important when you're playing in a section because it makes you keep the center of your tone. When you move your jaw around or change tongue position inside your mouth, you can get all kinds of cool tone-changing effects - none of which really helps when you're trying to blend in a section. On the other hand, if you're soloing or playing in a small group setting, keeping the jaw "set" is not anywhere as important...especially if you're trying to get a personal sound. Then you should feel free to change whatever you think is necessary, keeping intonation, etc. in mind as you do. Before I took any lessons, I played tenor with an awful embouchure - lots of biting the reed - because I wanted a Stan Getz sound, and that was one way to get it. If I needed to play lower than G or so, I had to move my jaw around to find where the horn would speak...and suddenly I didn't sound so Getzian anymore, and in a section those lower notes (like you get when you play 2nd tenor in a big band) would suddenly jump out as BLATTs. My teacher hipped me to the "set" jaw concept and lo and behold, my tone got bigger, stayed centered, and low notes weren't a problem. And I found other ways to emulate the Getz sound.
J. Calhoun User ID: 1244314	Jan 31st 5:10 PM I wasn't talking about whether you should generally keep the jaw fixed or moveable. I was pointing out that dropping the jaw and loosening the embouchure in order to get low notes out (as commonly done by players without a lot of experience) typically results in a BLATT. You can avoid dropping/loosening the jaw for low notes within the context of a fairly rigid and consistent jaw position, or within the context of a fairly flexible and adjustable jaw position.
MPL User ID: 0867924	Jan 31st 6:34 PM Agreed, with reservations. I still contend that, for inexperienced players, a flexible and adjustable jaw position (as opposed to consistent) will lead to intonation difficulties and tone center issues down the road.
paulwl User ID: 1891784	Feb 1st 11:46 AM The trouble with this advice lies in how it's usually taught. It's a "negative" technique: you're told what you shouldn't do, but not what you should, to get the note. So you don't drop your jaw, don't get the note, and don't get any more hints from the teacher. What then?
Noel User ID: 9955583	Feb 1st 12:58 PM My instructor up here is amazing. I still have some problems with moving my jaw but we have been working on not moving it. We are doing stop tounging and practicing having everything in place before I remove the toungue from the reed. Has anyone ever tried this before: Take your top lip off of the mouthpiece so it is flared up and your teeth are showing and play from top to bottom. It is the most deranged looking thing I have ever seen but it really helped me to understand embochure pressure more.
Subtone Sam User ID: 1432154	Feb 1st 6:03 PM MPL,I agree with the no jaw movement/section thing.Jaw movement or not,one should be able to produce any note in either way.One thing I do,is that I move my jaw back when subtoning;I learned this way.
MPL User ID: 0471064	Feb 1st 6:19 PM Yep, and that's the way my teacher taught me to subtone "correctly." And there are a number of ways to teach the "set" in a positive way. I usually try to have the player watch him/herself in a mirror during practice, and think of keeping the jaw in a set, steady position (instead of not moving) when tonguing. That usually does the trick, especially with younger students who may not be aware of all that stuff moving around when tonguing the reed. Noel, I'm going to try that teeth-bared technique myself and see what it teaches me! I'm always on the lookout for good ideas to use with students.