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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / Low B Flat Baritone?

Next 20 Messages

SAXGOURMET
User ID: 0534004 Dec 13th 7:14 AM
Shun-Hwa and I were talking about producing a low B Flat bari. To the best of my information, only Keilwerth makes one. Any thought? How critical is the Low A?

stevew
User ID: 8868883 Dec 13th 7:48 AM
The only bari I have owned (a Yanagisawa) has it and I use it, so I suppose I'd miss it if it wasn't there. I have read that the low Bb horns can be more responsive, but I would think 'low A' is a box everyone expects to be ticked now on a bari spec list, just like top F# keys, straight and curved necks on a soprano and so on - even though there are those who feel the instruments play better without those features. So maybe whilst the Bb might appeal to retro enthusiasts, it could work against the wider market appeal of the instrument. Depends how many you need to make I suppose.

MojoBari
User ID: 1320554 Dec 13th 7:59 AM
I think there are plenty of low Bb baris out there to satisfy those players. Then again, there are plenty of low A baris too.

You are after snagging some market share. I would say low A is the bigger pot. Plus, arrangers are putting tons of low As in bari parts. Unless you are a soloist in a combo, a low Bb bari is a crippled sax.

J. Calhoun
User ID: 1244314 Dec 13th 8:05 AM
I consider my main horn to be bari. I have only played on low Bb instruments because of availability and price (other than the occasional borrowed instrument). However...

I suspect the often-heard complaints about low A baritones are not inherent in their being low A instruments, but instead it may be because the body tubes are the same as for the low Bb. I am thinking of the Selmer Mark 6 and its descendants. The Mark 6 was designed as a low Bb horn (or was it?) But the thing that especially led me to wonder about this was talking to a friend of mine who recently tried out a bunch of baritones. He said that the intonation and tonal evenness of the Yamaha he ended up buying were far superior to the Selmers he tried. We theorized that Yamaha designed the horn from the beginning to be a low A and thus the body tube was slightly different than if the horn had been designed initially as a low Bb and then the bell (or even the bell and bow) were changed to low A.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I can't see any inherent reason why a low A designed from the start as a low A shouldn't be able to have the same characteristics as a low Bb designed from the beginning as a low Bb.

I would suggest the best model to start from would be the Conn 12M, since it seems to be the most prized for sound qualities. But a low A version would have to start out as a low A. (Not, from all accounts, a Conn 11M with the cylindrical extension!) Of course, I'm biased because I play a 12M and I have never heard a bari whose sound I like better.

Alan G.
User ID: 1348824 Dec 13th 8:56 AM
I concur with the Low A approach.

I play a Martin Bari in swing band. Losta the newer charts have low A in them.

But I love the sound of my Martin. Thats why I'm lusting after a Magna Martin - since those *apparently* have both the response and the low A.

Frankly Steve - I got excited when I heard of the SG Unison bari - because it would have the low A! - and knowing the effort you would put into it - it would be a killer horn.

Sooo- make it a Low A, with the sound of a 12M or a Martin (I know - they don't sound the same!) and you've got it.

Hmm - the Lush low end of a Martin - with that *cracking* sound of a 12M in the upper registers

See - wasn't that easy? :-)

Dr G
User ID: 7468553 Dec 13th 8:57 AM
To answer your question, Steve, the bari player that I work with in big band and classical quartet uses the low A in most every rehearsal or gig. It's become part of the expectation of modern repertoire.

Can it be done well? Certainly. Her low A Selmer sounds great as does a recently tested Yani bronze owned by another bari playing friend. BTW, for those paying attention to the aforementioned pitch woes, the latest Bamber Jazz model works well and sounds excellent.

JimH
User ID: 9238183 Dec 13th 9:03 AM

The low A is critical for big band and funk work. Having said that, i think that the low Bb horn can be more expressive and free blowing. I myself would be interested in a new low Bb horn but conceed that the demand may be low. I actually tried a low Bb keilwerth but went with the Low A. I already have a MarkVI low Bb and love it.

MusicMan
User ID: 0108854 Dec 13th 9:25 AM
I'll have to concur with the pack Steve. As primarily a bari player and as a big band member, all the newer charts (post 50's) call for that low A.

I'll admit though, that except for when I have to read a tuba part in concert band, most concert arrangements don't call for low A...

Realistically, the main market for baris is gonna call for low A. It's why I had to go out and shop for my new horn. You know I was happy with my Big B and would have kept to it, except for the big band stuff calling for the low A. Producing a low Bb horn is going to be a pretty limited niche market.

I'd be interested to know how many low Bb and low A Mk 6's were produced. I think you'd see even numbers toward the start of production, but declining sales of the Bb version as time progressed.

MPL
User ID: 9036243 Dec 13th 2:20 PM
Speaking as an arranger: I do not write baritone parts with the goal of using that low A. If the chart goes there in terms of structural/melodic/harmonic development, great. I'll put it in. If the chart does not go there, I won't make it go there just to get that low A. I doubt that many good writers will do that.

Speaking as a baritone player: I've had a heck of a lot more leaders ask me if I have a bass clarinet than if I have a low A baritone. Of course, that's possible because a baritone player might now be "expected" to have a low A baritone.

I play a low Bb Martin in a few different big bands and have played it in a pretty decent Motown-style horn section, and no one ever complained that I didn't sound good because I don't have a low A horn. I'd love to have a low A baritone, but I'm not losing gigs to players who do. The price point of a low A baritone that sounds as good as this Martin is beyond my reach at this time.

Realistically, I must agree that the market for a low Bb baritone is likely to be miniscule compared to the equivalent low A horn...especially if you're talking about a modernized, ergonomic, big-ol'-bell-so-it-sounds-like-a-Conn 12M, Steve Goodson model. If such a low A horn were manufactured, I'd find a way to afford it!

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 13th 2:52 PM
As a player who uses a 1932 Tranny 12M out of preference, I would be interetsed in a low Bb but in reality unless this new horn has the power of the Conn through all registers then it will be doomed to failure. The JK Bari's are great, only played the low A models but compared to the Conn, not in the same league. The newer Yamahas and Yanis don't cut the muster, only about half the grunt of the Conn. The older mk vi's, of which the Bb model has the best sound are no better than the Yamahas or Yanis.

I have recently acquired a Low A Magna Baritone which is currently being brought back into top condition (still chasing a neck though) has a big sound. The bell of the Magna low A is enormous, bigger than a Conn or a Buescher low Bb model. The bottom end even with the modified Conn neck on it at the moment is still huge. There is potential in this horn that defies the current condition.

Even though this Magna is big and loud, the loudest low A Bari I have yet found, the Conn is louder, more present and is better balanced to play. I doubt if the Magna will replace the Conn as the number 1 Bari, but it is the best low A I have yet found period.

Maybe a copy of a Magna Low A should be the source for the new Baritone model? Please add a RH F# aux key. I keep looking for this key.

StevenW
User ID: 9760743 Dec 13th 3:05 PM
I'm afraid that any new purchase Bari I bought would certainly be a Low-A model. (I've got a superb Low-Bb in the SML Silver Bari).

I'd be more interested in keywork additions, given the benefits they can bring to a Bari. The dual Low-A keys like Bootman's Magna. Forked Eb keywork (faster than flapping a 2 inch pad on the end of a 4 inch lever with the RH little finger. And so on....

Make it sing!

(BTW Put my serial number aside for me!)

StevenW

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 13th 3:22 PM
Actually if you want more resonance than a low A Bari, buy a low Bb Conn. If you want more power and presence than this, then buy a Conn Bass.

Steve G, How about a full ranged Bass sax? This would be a great thing to do.

Mike W
User ID: 9921013 Dec 13th 3:29 PM
I second the Bass. Especially if some mouthpiece development (i.e., low baffle, med. baffle, and high baffle) went along with it.

J. Calhoun
User ID: 1244314 Dec 13th 3:56 PM
I believe that for marketing reasons a low Bb will not fly well in today's market.

That said, I feel the same as "MPL", that I am not losing jobs as a bari player w/o a low A horn to players who do have a low A horn.

I suspect most bandleaders do not know whether I have a low A or not, unless they are sax players. I have never, not once, gotten a comment that the arrangements sounded bad without the low A. Of course I am not playing in a university big band (current arrangements) or in a classical setting.

J. Calhoun
User ID: 1244314 Dec 13th 3:57 PM
Oh yes, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put the forked Eb on the lower stack like the Conn, so we don't have to slide the little finger back and forth!!

Mitch A
User ID: 2226594 Dec 13th 4:07 PM
While you're at it.... how about going all the way down to about a low D so I can play bari and still slide down to a bass sax low range??? (I'll let you figure out the fingering)

SG Bari/Bass.... it'd end my search for a bass.

modre
User ID: 8479113 Dec 13th 5:21 PM
it's true in MOST playing situations lots of notes other than low A get played, but in the circumstance when it's time for the low A...there just is no substitute. weight-wise (which is a major consideration on bari) there's not much difference. Low A is a good note as far as notes go (concert C is a horn key as opposed to concert C#/guitar area), but it's an even better percussive "thumper" effect. it doesn't really matter where the knobs are set...when you thump the A, the whole room feels it (or the engineer in the studio gets an immediate chub). that doesn't happen with Bb.

my main ax (of choice) is tenor...but I have the unfortunate curse of being especially effective on bari...thus everyone wants me to lug the monster, while they merrily trapse about with the lighter horns.

if your intention is to sell horns to folks (who don't know the difference), there's nothing wrong with a Bb horn. if your target market is those poor (pro) fools who lug the big meat around then it has to have an A. I guess it would depend on whether the goal is commerce or art.

another thought is the low A bell would put your moniker that much closer to the camera lens...you PR wildman.

...but then again, not everyone can effectively hit that note with authority, verve, and the "hope to die" sense of time...if not done well, it sticks way out there...so maybe Bb is good enough...the world is a dangerous enough place as is.

I can't really speak on big band situations with written parts...my gigs are not rehersal based. I show up on time, open the valve and just "let 'er fly".

Bootman's bass sax fetish is just out there ... probably the effect of a spider bite, or some mis-alignment of the continental drift.

has anyone played a Tubax?

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 14th 12:38 AM
Modre,
Once you have played a Bass sax, Bari just doesn't cut it anymore. I did a session this week where the Bass sax made an appearance, the thunder of a low B on a Conn Bass is a thing to behold. In fact you haven't experienced the earth shaking joy of Mustang Sally "ba-rup" done on Bass.

Low Bb on my Conn Bari will rattle the speakers, in fact it will rattle the room even without a Mic. You don't really need a low if the rest of the horn rips. For solo playing or as a 1 horn section gig, there is nothing that beats a 12M tranny or late Chu. every other Baritone pales into insignificance when compared.

But be this as it may, a modern Bari must have a low A as this has become the accpeted norm for written and big band charts. A low a Bari and a Low A Soprano, saxello style would be the best of options for me at least. The Bari would need to have a big bell and not be based on the Mk vi.

Son Of Zorn
User ID: 3124754 Dec 14th 12:47 AM
Many people in the classical and jazz world prefer the low Bb baritone. Cannonball is working on one right now with Brad Hubbard of the New Century sax quartet.

Isn't the new Selmer refernce Bari agoing to be Low Bb?

MojoBari
User ID: 1195644 Dec 14th 8:54 AM
Hows about a low B bari? Better yet? ;-)

Next 20 Messages

SAXGOURMET User ID: 0534004	Dec 13th 7:14 AM Shun-Hwa and I were talking about producing a low B Flat bari. To the best of my information, only Keilwerth makes one. Any thought? How critical is the Low A?
stevew User ID: 8868883	Dec 13th 7:48 AM The only bari I have owned (a Yanagisawa) has it and I use it, so I suppose I'd miss it if it wasn't there. I have read that the low Bb horns can be more responsive, but I would think 'low A' is a box everyone expects to be ticked now on a bari spec list, just like top F# keys, straight and curved necks on a soprano and so on - even though there are those who feel the instruments play better without those features. So maybe whilst the Bb might appeal to retro enthusiasts, it could work against the wider market appeal of the instrument. Depends how many you need to make I suppose.
MojoBari User ID: 1320554	Dec 13th 7:59 AM I think there are plenty of low Bb baris out there to satisfy those players. Then again, there are plenty of low A baris too. You are after snagging some market share. I would say low A is the bigger pot. Plus, arrangers are putting tons of low As in bari parts. Unless you are a soloist in a combo, a low Bb bari is a crippled sax.
J. Calhoun User ID: 1244314	Dec 13th 8:05 AM I consider my main horn to be bari. I have only played on low Bb instruments because of availability and price (other than the occasional borrowed instrument). However... I suspect the often-heard complaints about low A baritones are not inherent in their being low A instruments, but instead it may be because the body tubes are the same as for the low Bb. I am thinking of the Selmer Mark 6 and its descendants. The Mark 6 was designed as a low Bb horn (or was it?) But the thing that especially led me to wonder about this was talking to a friend of mine who recently tried out a bunch of baritones. He said that the intonation and tonal evenness of the Yamaha he ended up buying were far superior to the Selmers he tried. We theorized that Yamaha designed the horn from the beginning to be a low A and thus the body tube was slightly different than if the horn had been designed initially as a low Bb and then the bell (or even the bell and bow) were changed to low A. I don't know if this is true or not, but I can't see any inherent reason why a low A designed from the start as a low A shouldn't be able to have the same characteristics as a low Bb designed from the beginning as a low Bb. I would suggest the best model to start from would be the Conn 12M, since it seems to be the most prized for sound qualities. But a low A version would have to start out as a low A. (Not, from all accounts, a Conn 11M with the cylindrical extension!) Of course, I'm biased because I play a 12M and I have never heard a bari whose sound I like better.
Alan G. User ID: 1348824	Dec 13th 8:56 AM I concur with the Low A approach. I play a Martin Bari in swing band. Losta the newer charts have low A in them. But I love the sound of my Martin. Thats why I'm lusting after a Magna Martin - since those apparently have both the response and the low A. Frankly Steve - I got excited when I heard of the SG Unison bari - because it would have the low A! - and knowing the effort you would put into it - it would be a killer horn. Sooo- make it a Low A, with the sound of a 12M or a Martin (I know - they don't sound the same!) and you've got it. Hmm - the Lush low end of a Martin - with that cracking sound of a 12M in the upper registers See - wasn't that easy? :-)
Dr G User ID: 7468553	Dec 13th 8:57 AM To answer your question, Steve, the bari player that I work with in big band and classical quartet uses the low A in most every rehearsal or gig. It's become part of the expectation of modern repertoire. Can it be done well? Certainly. Her low A Selmer sounds great as does a recently tested Yani bronze owned by another bari playing friend. BTW, for those paying attention to the aforementioned pitch woes, the latest Bamber Jazz model works well and sounds excellent.
JimH User ID: 9238183	Dec 13th 9:03 AM The low A is critical for big band and funk work. Having said that, i think that the low Bb horn can be more expressive and free blowing. I myself would be interested in a new low Bb horn but conceed that the demand may be low. I actually tried a low Bb keilwerth but went with the Low A. I already have a MarkVI low Bb and love it.
MusicMan User ID: 0108854	Dec 13th 9:25 AM I'll have to concur with the pack Steve. As primarily a bari player and as a big band member, all the newer charts (post 50's) call for that low A. I'll admit though, that except for when I have to read a tuba part in concert band, most concert arrangements don't call for low A... Realistically, the main market for baris is gonna call for low A. It's why I had to go out and shop for my new horn. You know I was happy with my Big B and would have kept to it, except for the big band stuff calling for the low A. Producing a low Bb horn is going to be a pretty limited niche market. I'd be interested to know how many low Bb and low A Mk 6's were produced. I think you'd see even numbers toward the start of production, but declining sales of the Bb version as time progressed.
MPL User ID: 9036243	Dec 13th 2:20 PM Speaking as an arranger: I do not write baritone parts with the goal of using that low A. If the chart goes there in terms of structural/melodic/harmonic development, great. I'll put it in. If the chart does not go there, I won't make it go there just to get that low A. I doubt that many good writers will do that. Speaking as a baritone player: I've had a heck of a lot more leaders ask me if I have a bass clarinet than if I have a low A baritone. Of course, that's possible because a baritone player might now be "expected" to have a low A baritone. I play a low Bb Martin in a few different big bands and have played it in a pretty decent Motown-style horn section, and no one ever complained that I didn't sound good because I don't have a low A horn. I'd love to have a low A baritone, but I'm not losing gigs to players who do. The price point of a low A baritone that sounds as good as this Martin is beyond my reach at this time. Realistically, I must agree that the market for a low Bb baritone is likely to be miniscule compared to the equivalent low A horn...especially if you're talking about a modernized, ergonomic, big-ol'-bell-so-it-sounds-like-a-Conn 12M, Steve Goodson model. If such a low A horn were manufactured, I'd find a way to afford it!
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 13th 2:52 PM As a player who uses a 1932 Tranny 12M out of preference, I would be interetsed in a low Bb but in reality unless this new horn has the power of the Conn through all registers then it will be doomed to failure. The JK Bari's are great, only played the low A models but compared to the Conn, not in the same league. The newer Yamahas and Yanis don't cut the muster, only about half the grunt of the Conn. The older mk vi's, of which the Bb model has the best sound are no better than the Yamahas or Yanis. I have recently acquired a Low A Magna Baritone which is currently being brought back into top condition (still chasing a neck though) has a big sound. The bell of the Magna low A is enormous, bigger than a Conn or a Buescher low Bb model. The bottom end even with the modified Conn neck on it at the moment is still huge. There is potential in this horn that defies the current condition. Even though this Magna is big and loud, the loudest low A Bari I have yet found, the Conn is louder, more present and is better balanced to play. I doubt if the Magna will replace the Conn as the number 1 Bari, but it is the best low A I have yet found period. Maybe a copy of a Magna Low A should be the source for the new Baritone model? Please add a RH F# aux key. I keep looking for this key.
StevenW User ID: 9760743	Dec 13th 3:05 PM I'm afraid that any new purchase Bari I bought would certainly be a Low-A model. (I've got a superb Low-Bb in the SML Silver Bari). I'd be more interested in keywork additions, given the benefits they can bring to a Bari. The dual Low-A keys like Bootman's Magna. Forked Eb keywork (faster than flapping a 2 inch pad on the end of a 4 inch lever with the RH little finger. And so on.... Make it sing! (BTW Put my serial number aside for me!) StevenW
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 13th 3:22 PM Actually if you want more resonance than a low A Bari, buy a low Bb Conn. If you want more power and presence than this, then buy a Conn Bass. Steve G, How about a full ranged Bass sax? This would be a great thing to do.
Mike W User ID: 9921013	Dec 13th 3:29 PM I second the Bass. Especially if some mouthpiece development (i.e., low baffle, med. baffle, and high baffle) went along with it.
J. Calhoun User ID: 1244314	Dec 13th 3:56 PM I believe that for marketing reasons a low Bb will not fly well in today's market. That said, I feel the same as "MPL", that I am not losing jobs as a bari player w/o a low A horn to players who do have a low A horn. I suspect most bandleaders do not know whether I have a low A or not, unless they are sax players. I have never, not once, gotten a comment that the arrangements sounded bad without the low A. Of course I am not playing in a university big band (current arrangements) or in a classical setting.
J. Calhoun User ID: 1244314	Dec 13th 3:57 PM Oh yes, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE put the forked Eb on the lower stack like the Conn, so we don't have to slide the little finger back and forth!!
Mitch A User ID: 2226594	Dec 13th 4:07 PM While you're at it.... how about going all the way down to about a low D so I can play bari and still slide down to a bass sax low range??? (I'll let you figure out the fingering) SG Bari/Bass.... it'd end my search for a bass.
modre User ID: 8479113	Dec 13th 5:21 PM it's true in MOST playing situations lots of notes other than low A get played, but in the circumstance when it's time for the low A...there just is no substitute. weight-wise (which is a major consideration on bari) there's not much difference. Low A is a good note as far as notes go (concert C is a horn key as opposed to concert C#/guitar area), but it's an even better percussive "thumper" effect. it doesn't really matter where the knobs are set...when you thump the A, the whole room feels it (or the engineer in the studio gets an immediate chub). that doesn't happen with Bb. my main ax (of choice) is tenor...but I have the unfortunate curse of being especially effective on bari...thus everyone wants me to lug the monster, while they merrily trapse about with the lighter horns. if your intention is to sell horns to folks (who don't know the difference), there's nothing wrong with a Bb horn. if your target market is those poor (pro) fools who lug the big meat around then it has to have an A. I guess it would depend on whether the goal is commerce or art. another thought is the low A bell would put your moniker that much closer to the camera lens...you PR wildman. ...but then again, not everyone can effectively hit that note with authority, verve, and the "hope to die" sense of time...if not done well, it sticks way out there...so maybe Bb is good enough...the world is a dangerous enough place as is. I can't really speak on big band situations with written parts...my gigs are not rehersal based. I show up on time, open the valve and just "let 'er fly". Bootman's bass sax fetish is just out there ... probably the effect of a spider bite, or some mis-alignment of the continental drift. has anyone played a Tubax?
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 14th 12:38 AM Modre, Once you have played a Bass sax, Bari just doesn't cut it anymore. I did a session this week where the Bass sax made an appearance, the thunder of a low B on a Conn Bass is a thing to behold. In fact you haven't experienced the earth shaking joy of Mustang Sally "ba-rup" done on Bass. Low Bb on my Conn Bari will rattle the speakers, in fact it will rattle the room even without a Mic. You don't really need a low if the rest of the horn rips. For solo playing or as a 1 horn section gig, there is nothing that beats a 12M tranny or late Chu. every other Baritone pales into insignificance when compared. But be this as it may, a modern Bari must have a low A as this has become the accpeted norm for written and big band charts. A low a Bari and a Low A Soprano, saxello style would be the best of options for me at least. The Bari would need to have a big bell and not be based on the Mk vi.
Son Of Zorn User ID: 3124754	Dec 14th 12:47 AM Many people in the classical and jazz world prefer the low Bb baritone. Cannonball is working on one right now with Brad Hubbard of the New Century sax quartet. Isn't the new Selmer refernce Bari agoing to be Low Bb?
MojoBari User ID: 1195644	Dec 14th 8:54 AM Hows about a low B bari? Better yet? ;-)