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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Baritone Saxophone / can a couesnon compare to a 12 m or Mart

Bari Bari
User ID: 0094674 Dec 15th 9:48 AM
can a couesnon compare to a 12 m or martin. I am trying to decide which one will be best for me. I will be playing it both in big band environment but also in a jazz combo, and a rock band. The rock band will call for the "ribs" of the bari horn. Something smokey and sweet. So if someone who has heard or played all 3 of these horns could comment I would appreciate it. I am honestly leaning towards the couesnon though as it seems like a much better buy. I heard on average the other 2 horns have intonation issues. I am just wondering if oversized noyek resos, and a cryogenic treatment will make the couesnon a better choice that the other 2. Thnx for the input:)

Jerry K.
User ID: 2003384 Dec 15th 10:41 AM
I own a Cuesnon alto and would charcterize the sound as smooth, sweet, and very well in tune. I wouldn't think that the Cuesnon bari would have the guts to pull off the rock part of your requirement. My alto isn't a real heavy or loud horn though the bari could be different. I would think a The Martin would meet your requirements very well because my Martins can play smokey and sweet or roar when pushed.

Bari Bari
User ID: 0094674 Dec 15th 11:35 AM
hmm thnx for the input, I am currently deciding between a silver plate The Martin, and the couesnon. You may be right, the couesnon might not have the power or the smokeyness:( I would hate to make the wrong decision.

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 15th 2:13 PM
If the Conn was an early model from around the 1930's it would do all that you wish it to do and more. If it is a later model COnn Bari then these can often be a lot less powerful and resonant than the earlier models.

I would humbly suggest that you get the Martin Bari, unless it is an early Conn Bari. Remember that Conn and Martin baris require big chamber mpcs to play in tune.

The Cousenon could be a nice horn but it will have a much lower resale value, be difficult to sell and may not have the power that you require for a Rock or RnB setting.

Bari Bari
User ID: 0094674 Dec 15th 3:26 PM
Bootman, I value your oppinion alot, and see what you are saying, ignoring the resale of the horn, do you think the coueson might do what I want as well or better than a vintage conn or martin. The conn has usa on the bell as it was probably made to be played for ww2. The Martin is actually quite rare as it is silver plated. And the coueson, it is of interest because I know it has had a good life and been played professionaly for most of it. It has had one owner. It is probably a decent horn since the owner never got a different one. This is still a hard descion for me though. I really want the horn to have some personality to it. Not sound like any old bari. With his in mind would the couesnon be my best choice? Or would the couesnon for sure not put out as much sound as the conn or martin.

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 15th 4:39 PM
A couple of questions.

What is the serial number of the Conn, which is silver plated? What damage has this horn suffered? Is it straight? Does it have rolled tone holes? What are the pads like?

What is the serial of the Martin? Are all the tone holes sealing? Is the horn straight? Is there any keywork slop? What condition are the pads in?

Email me privately and I can send you a lot of pics of Conn Baris and can advise on the pit falls of buying a used Bari. Always factor in the cost of a full overhaul into the price, I mean full, not just pads but body work, keywork repairs etc. There are lots of hidden costs in buying a used baritone which normally have been knocked around for most of their life. The good news is that when these old horns are fully restored you then have a sax that will last for another 50 years.

I am also getting frustrated with Baritone purchasing because I have bought at least 4 or 5 this year trying to replace my Conn Chu which I had to sell to buy a Bass sax. I think I have probably played at least 20 Baris, new and vintage this year to reach the decision that the Conn Tranny from 1932 I have here is the best one I could find. The Magna low A I have here is also going to come back as a killer horn but once again this isn't a cheap baritone, already at $3000 USD and I haven't bought the new case yet.

bootman@bootmanmusic.com

Bari Bari
User ID: 0094674 Dec 15th 5:34 PM
I emailed you bootman. Please dont totally ignore the couesnon though, as right now it seems like my best choice. But we can talk about that via email. So I am looking forward to hearing from you.

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 16th 12:00 AM
I'm not ignoring the Cousenon but I have never played a Cousenon Bari, alto's yes but no Bari. This is what I am using as a basis for my comments, comparing the Cousenon altos to Martin and Conn altos. I would choose a Martin alto over the Conn and the Cousenon.

In Baritones, there is nothing that compares to the Conn from the late 20's through early 30's. These have the biggest sound and fill a room like no other Baritone alive.

Bari Bari
User ID: 0094674 Dec 16th 11:21 AM
my conflict with conn baris from 20s and 30s is they do not have front F.

Bootman
User ID: 7601343 Dec 16th 2:18 PM
I have over come this problem and have had a front F key added to my Conn. Check the pics out I sent you.

GaryLee
User ID: 1550764 Dec 16th 3:44 PM
I recently purchased a Cousenon bari just for fun because it played well and was cheap ($400).
Not sure of the exact model but it looks just like the Monopole I on saxpics except it has nickel keys. It does have rolled tone holes. It is pretty beat, previous school horn, and the keys rattle.

I am primarily a tenor player and not a pro. I don't regularly play bari and I have not played the other horns you are considering so you can weigh my comments accordingly.

Intonation is good up to C3 at which point it goes noticibly sharp. Could be me or the cheap "no name" mouthpiece. Previous owner had similar experience.

I would call the tone sweet much like a Martin tenor I have played. I can't get a big cutting sound out of it but that could again be me or the mouthpiece.

The key placement seems a little odd compared to a Selmer bari I tried. Some places to close, some a bit of a reach. The biggest problem I have is the octave key sits a little high compared to the RH thumb rest button. This causes me to bend my wrist at a funny angle. I did not notice it at first but after an hour or so of playing my wrist hurts. I am going to talk to a tech it see of the octave key can be adjusted to be more even with the thumb rest or the thumb rest built up.

Jerry K.
User ID: 2003384 Dec 16th 4:17 PM
Garylee, I have noticed the same unusual height of the octave key on my Cuesnon alto. It's sort of floating above the left hand thunbrest. I was thinking about going thicker on the cork below the post that actuates the neck key. This would bring the octave key more even with the thumbrest. This has been my only beef with my alto.

Based on my experience with the Cuesnon alto, I would really doubt that the bari could ever have the guts that you're after Bari Bari. If I were you I would listen to Bootman's advice and keep looking until you find a Martin or Conn in the condition you're after.

I. Fallon
User ID: 0694274 Jan 5th 6:07 PM
I also have a Couesnon Monopole Bari. Great for big band or jazz combo, but I don't think that it would cut it in a rock environment (I would use a Conn for that). The octave key does take a little to get used to but I have no problem with any other key. I would not pay a lot of money for one (although some people do) but it is a sleeper if you can get one in the $800 range with good pads.

I don't think that you can go wrong with any of your choices.

Another alternative if you are on a budget is the King Tempo bari, which is a Keilwerth stencil. This horn rocks with the best of the Conns and often goes cheap.

Bari Bari User ID: 0094674	Dec 15th 9:48 AM can a couesnon compare to a 12 m or martin. I am trying to decide which one will be best for me. I will be playing it both in big band environment but also in a jazz combo, and a rock band. The rock band will call for the "ribs" of the bari horn. Something smokey and sweet. So if someone who has heard or played all 3 of these horns could comment I would appreciate it. I am honestly leaning towards the couesnon though as it seems like a much better buy. I heard on average the other 2 horns have intonation issues. I am just wondering if oversized noyek resos, and a cryogenic treatment will make the couesnon a better choice that the other 2. Thnx for the input:)
Jerry K. User ID: 2003384	Dec 15th 10:41 AM I own a Cuesnon alto and would charcterize the sound as smooth, sweet, and very well in tune. I wouldn't think that the Cuesnon bari would have the guts to pull off the rock part of your requirement. My alto isn't a real heavy or loud horn though the bari could be different. I would think a The Martin would meet your requirements very well because my Martins can play smokey and sweet or roar when pushed.
Bari Bari User ID: 0094674	Dec 15th 11:35 AM hmm thnx for the input, I am currently deciding between a silver plate The Martin, and the couesnon. You may be right, the couesnon might not have the power or the smokeyness:( I would hate to make the wrong decision.
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 15th 2:13 PM If the Conn was an early model from around the 1930's it would do all that you wish it to do and more. If it is a later model COnn Bari then these can often be a lot less powerful and resonant than the earlier models. I would humbly suggest that you get the Martin Bari, unless it is an early Conn Bari. Remember that Conn and Martin baris require big chamber mpcs to play in tune. The Cousenon could be a nice horn but it will have a much lower resale value, be difficult to sell and may not have the power that you require for a Rock or RnB setting.
Bari Bari User ID: 0094674	Dec 15th 3:26 PM Bootman, I value your oppinion alot, and see what you are saying, ignoring the resale of the horn, do you think the coueson might do what I want as well or better than a vintage conn or martin. The conn has usa on the bell as it was probably made to be played for ww2. The Martin is actually quite rare as it is silver plated. And the coueson, it is of interest because I know it has had a good life and been played professionaly for most of it. It has had one owner. It is probably a decent horn since the owner never got a different one. This is still a hard descion for me though. I really want the horn to have some personality to it. Not sound like any old bari. With his in mind would the couesnon be my best choice? Or would the couesnon for sure not put out as much sound as the conn or martin.
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 15th 4:39 PM A couple of questions. What is the serial number of the Conn, which is silver plated? What damage has this horn suffered? Is it straight? Does it have rolled tone holes? What are the pads like? What is the serial of the Martin? Are all the tone holes sealing? Is the horn straight? Is there any keywork slop? What condition are the pads in? Email me privately and I can send you a lot of pics of Conn Baris and can advise on the pit falls of buying a used Bari. Always factor in the cost of a full overhaul into the price, I mean full, not just pads but body work, keywork repairs etc. There are lots of hidden costs in buying a used baritone which normally have been knocked around for most of their life. The good news is that when these old horns are fully restored you then have a sax that will last for another 50 years. I am also getting frustrated with Baritone purchasing because I have bought at least 4 or 5 this year trying to replace my Conn Chu which I had to sell to buy a Bass sax. I think I have probably played at least 20 Baris, new and vintage this year to reach the decision that the Conn Tranny from 1932 I have here is the best one I could find. The Magna low A I have here is also going to come back as a killer horn but once again this isn't a cheap baritone, already at $3000 USD and I haven't bought the new case yet. bootman@bootmanmusic.com
Bari Bari User ID: 0094674	Dec 15th 5:34 PM I emailed you bootman. Please dont totally ignore the couesnon though, as right now it seems like my best choice. But we can talk about that via email. So I am looking forward to hearing from you.
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 16th 12:00 AM I'm not ignoring the Cousenon but I have never played a Cousenon Bari, alto's yes but no Bari. This is what I am using as a basis for my comments, comparing the Cousenon altos to Martin and Conn altos. I would choose a Martin alto over the Conn and the Cousenon. In Baritones, there is nothing that compares to the Conn from the late 20's through early 30's. These have the biggest sound and fill a room like no other Baritone alive.
Bari Bari User ID: 0094674	Dec 16th 11:21 AM my conflict with conn baris from 20s and 30s is they do not have front F.
Bootman User ID: 7601343	Dec 16th 2:18 PM I have over come this problem and have had a front F key added to my Conn. Check the pics out I sent you.
GaryLee User ID: 1550764	Dec 16th 3:44 PM I recently purchased a Cousenon bari just for fun because it played well and was cheap ($400). Not sure of the exact model but it looks just like the Monopole I on saxpics except it has nickel keys. It does have rolled tone holes. It is pretty beat, previous school horn, and the keys rattle. I am primarily a tenor player and not a pro. I don't regularly play bari and I have not played the other horns you are considering so you can weigh my comments accordingly. Intonation is good up to C3 at which point it goes noticibly sharp. Could be me or the cheap "no name" mouthpiece. Previous owner had similar experience. I would call the tone sweet much like a Martin tenor I have played. I can't get a big cutting sound out of it but that could again be me or the mouthpiece. The key placement seems a little odd compared to a Selmer bari I tried. Some places to close, some a bit of a reach. The biggest problem I have is the octave key sits a little high compared to the RH thumb rest button. This causes me to bend my wrist at a funny angle. I did not notice it at first but after an hour or so of playing my wrist hurts. I am going to talk to a tech it see of the octave key can be adjusted to be more even with the thumb rest or the thumb rest built up.
Jerry K. User ID: 2003384	Dec 16th 4:17 PM Garylee, I have noticed the same unusual height of the octave key on my Cuesnon alto. It's sort of floating above the left hand thunbrest. I was thinking about going thicker on the cork below the post that actuates the neck key. This would bring the octave key more even with the thumbrest. This has been my only beef with my alto. Based on my experience with the Cuesnon alto, I would really doubt that the bari could ever have the guts that you're after Bari Bari. If I were you I would listen to Bootman's advice and keep looking until you find a Martin or Conn in the condition you're after.
I. Fallon User ID: 0694274	Jan 5th 6:07 PM I also have a Couesnon Monopole Bari. Great for big band or jazz combo, but I don't think that it would cut it in a rock environment (I would use a Conn for that). The octave key does take a little to get used to but I have no problem with any other key. I would not pay a lot of money for one (although some people do) but it is a sleeper if you can get one in the $800 range with good pads. I don't think that you can go wrong with any of your choices. Another alternative if you are on a budget is the King Tempo bari, which is a Keilwerth stencil. This horn rocks with the best of the Conns and often goes cheap.