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Sax on the Web Forum Archive / Altissimo & Multiphonics / Too early top learn Altissimo ?

Micky
User ID: 1062774 Oct 29th 12:11 AM
After playing saxophone for 6, 7 months, my tone is OK compare to other beginners. I can play all Major & Minor scale with 2 or 3 octave in all keys. I can transcribed some saxophone solo & put it on a notation sheet (I know nothing of theory. Able to play some songs like Take five. But Altissimo is very trouble for me, I cannot get it.

I tryed all differnet fingering for Alt. G & use fast airsteams, tighten my mouth and drop my jaw but just can't get that sund. I was completely failed in this subject.

How soon you start this after learn sax? Do you think it's the right time for me to start this now? Or you think is teh problem for my horn (Yana A991) ?

Rordog
User ID: 0819174 Oct 29th 12:51 AM
There's sooooo much more important stuff to learn. a good tone, not just an OK tone. More ear training, improv skills, theoretical understandingg. At your stage you don't even know what kind of mouthpiece or reed you like yet. I'd stick to basics for now; but if you want to keep trying, I'm not saying absolutely not. Just don't make it the ultimate priority. I couldn't pop out altissimo until I'd been playing for nearly ten years. Many people are faster than me, but it took me that long. I never even started trying until I was a junior in high school. Started playing sax in fifth grade.

Micky
User ID: 1062774 Oct 29th 2:35 AM
Rordog,

First, I appreciate of your comment & I agreed with you. Yes, I'm trying my best to develop my skill & tone. For ear training, I try to transcribe at least one song each 2 weeks by ear. Usually, I let the Noteworth Composer program to sing my transcribed solo work. After I make sure all the notes are OK. Then, I give it to my tutor to correct my mistake for theory of my work . However, I do know what sound & MP I like. May be you don't believe, I have test on so many different MP these in the past 7 months. I already own more than 10 MP for alto & soprano.

For Alto;
Meyer M5, Yana #7 HR, V16, Dukoff D7, Beechler Bellite metal, Jumbo Java.

For soprano:
I have a Yamaha Custom HR, Selmer SS, a Beechler Bellite metal, Metal Link, a Lawton P Chamber & a Bari HR.

The best sound for my ear is Beechler Bellite metal #6 for Alto, I use only this for my alto since 3 months before. And I will keep to use it.

For Reed, I also tried almost all different reed: SJ, Java, La Voz, Hemke, V-16, Vandroean Traditional, Bari Star Reed & Fribracell. SJ for alto is my final choice and I mainly use Hemke for soprano.

I'm just very surprise that I can't make a Altissimo G by trying all different fingering. In technical side, not sure what mistake I have made.

marc
User ID: 0805074 Oct 29th 4:32 AM
Micky,
I also started very recently and have been advised to practice overtones every day, this is one of the entry doors to altissimo.
Try this to evaluate your level :
play a low Bb and without changing your fingering (no octave key, etc) at all, try to play a Bb one octave higher, then a F one octave higher, then a Bb, etc ... just by changing your tongue position. This will open up your high register and teach you the right tongue positions.
It really helps me a lot but TAKES TIME !
There are some books on the overtones subject.

danmcb
User ID: 8506593 Oct 29th 4:43 AM
Take it slowly ... if after 6 or 7 months you have all your scales down in 2 octaves, you're doing well.

Spend a few minutes a day doing long notes, overtone exercises and the note bending exercise (look at 'It's all about tongue position' in the altissimo section) and you will start getting your altissimo soon enough.

It's not too soon, but don't focus on it too much! You can make a LOT of music without altissimo. If you make altissimo your only goal, you might end up doing it by biting or in some other bad way. But if you master all these exercises, you should improve your overall sound, tone, AND one day, the altissimo will suddenly pop out.

kelvin
User ID: 8416263 Oct 29th 8:24 AM
How do you do the overtone? I just do it by changing my embrochure without changing tongue position, then I can play 3 overtone, but I can't make the 4th. Is that because of my tongue?

MS
User ID: 0130044 Oct 29th 9:57 AM
Micky
I would suggest you get a copy of a book called "Voicing, an approach to the third register" by Donald Sinta. Has good information and exercises to learn the altissimo register.

If your teacher plays in the altissimo register, have him help you. A book will give you ideas on how to learn, but won't teach you anything. A live model/teacher can be very helpful.

Micky
User ID: 1062774 Oct 29th 9:50 PM
I'm spending 70% time on technical things in each practice seession:

1) Tone developement (Long tone + Match tone together by using Crescendo& Decrescendo approach)

2) Fingering exercise - Purpose is to speed up fingering with good tone + warm up.

3) Scale in All keys - Major, Minor (Melodic, Harmonic, Dorian, Natural), Pentatonic Major. Each scale by playing in 2 octave if possible. Some scale I can't play 2 octave at this moment like A, G or G#.

4) Pattern - Major Triads, Minor Triads, Major in Third, in Froths.

I use different tonguing when practice scale & patterns (All slur, or all attack, or Jazz tonguing - Tongue every other note)

The remaining 20 to 30% for this:
5) Play song or solo transcribed.
Sign reading is a part of it.

I think my routine is very full, it takes at least 2 hours to complete usually I don't have 2 hours time).
I really want to add let say 10 minutes on Altissimo. My teacher has shown me this but not easy to understand because I can't see how his mouth doing.
I think must be some trick/ I miss something on it so that I can make the Alt G.

PS; Does some saxophone have problem to play Altissimo note ?

Kevin
User ID: 9753653 Oct 29th 9:57 PM
Get Rascher's Top Tones and work through it....and read about some of the tongue position exercises that have been described in this site.

MS
User ID: 0130044 Oct 29th 10:10 PM
A player who can play altissimo on one instrument can play altissimo on any instrument that is in good repair.

You will have to learn, by trisal and error what to do with the inside of your mouth.

Several threads and a couple of books have been suggested for you to read through. Do the work and take time. This is not a short or easy process for some.

Grumps
User ID: 0909594 Oct 29th 11:39 PM
Sounds like you've been working very hard at your free throws and now you want to slam dunk. Truth is, not everyone grows tall enough to slam dunk, but that doesn't mean they don't have game. Practicing free throws is good solid fundamentals and reaching for the slam dunk is fine and dandy, but don't forget to work on your game. That's your priority and that's where it's all really at.

Danny Barrett
User ID: 1084044 Nov 5th 12:30 AM
I was going to say to get Rascher's book, but Kevin beat me to it. Rascher was the master of overtones and altissimo, so don't try to short-cut what he says, or you'll only end up setting yourself backwards.

As the other guys have said, do your long notes and overtones first and foremost as preparation to the altissimo.

Also, some sax's aren't good with altissimo, but most should be OK. A good example of a bad sax for altissimo is my Weltklang tenor: Most of them are very flat, and no amount of embouchure adjustment will fix them. On the other hand, I played around with a Chinese Selmer MK VI copy, and they were perfectly in tune. Your Yanna shouldn't have any problems like my old "klanger".

In any case, don't rush it - you've got a lot of embouchure work to do between now and popping out any altissimo note you may desire, so don't be too concerned about it yet.

Screech
User ID: 2309834 Nov 14th 6:13 AM
Good luck and don't tighten up it doesn't work.

SaxMan
User ID: 9488873 Nov 16th 10:56 PM
- Mickey
I would not start until about at least a year of playing, I tried my first altissimo note after about 6 months and I couldnt play for 3 weeks. luckily the damage was not permanent, but it can be if you do not have a emboucher strong enought to support these notes. Be patient, I now have a 5 octave range, got most of it last year.

MS
User ID: 0130044 Nov 17th 2:16 PM
The time to start altimisso is when you are interester and ready to go about learning.

The smart way is to learn by lernning to do voicings with your oral cavity and vocal tract.

I have a seventh grade tenor student that can play three or four altissimo notes. He does the mouthpiece ex and can vary the pitch by voicing on the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece exercise on tenor (concert G) is the setting for the tenor altissimo A3. Once I pointed this out it clicked for this student.

I am an esperienced teacher and would not encourage a student to do something that will be harmful to his playing.

However I have taught college students that didn't develop altissimo until junior year.

Development of altissimo is sometimes a physical thing, sometimes an understanding thing. Not every young person develops in a rigid predictable manner in years. I sometimes find that young students are more flexible in learning altissimo that players who have played for years and never attempted altissimo.

Working on altissimo with the supervision of a good teacher is invaluable. Sometimes if you think you can, you're right. Ig you think you CAN'T, you're also right. Developing altissimo by jaw and teeth pressure alone is indeed painful and probably won't work.
Have fun.

SaxMan
User ID: 9488873 Nov 19th 12:53 AM
Ya, well ive got a 5 octave range plus one half step, low A to the 5th Bb on the sax. (lower Bb with foot.)

Micky User ID: 1062774	Oct 29th 12:11 AM After playing saxophone for 6, 7 months, my tone is OK compare to other beginners. I can play all Major & Minor scale with 2 or 3 octave in all keys. I can transcribed some saxophone solo & put it on a notation sheet (I know nothing of theory. Able to play some songs like Take five. But Altissimo is very trouble for me, I cannot get it. I tryed all differnet fingering for Alt. G & use fast airsteams, tighten my mouth and drop my jaw but just can't get that sund. I was completely failed in this subject. How soon you start this after learn sax? Do you think it's the right time for me to start this now? Or you think is teh problem for my horn (Yana A991) ?
Rordog User ID: 0819174	Oct 29th 12:51 AM There's sooooo much more important stuff to learn. a good tone, not just an OK tone. More ear training, improv skills, theoretical understandingg. At your stage you don't even know what kind of mouthpiece or reed you like yet. I'd stick to basics for now; but if you want to keep trying, I'm not saying absolutely not. Just don't make it the ultimate priority. I couldn't pop out altissimo until I'd been playing for nearly ten years. Many people are faster than me, but it took me that long. I never even started trying until I was a junior in high school. Started playing sax in fifth grade.
Micky User ID: 1062774	Oct 29th 2:35 AM Rordog, First, I appreciate of your comment & I agreed with you. Yes, I'm trying my best to develop my skill & tone. For ear training, I try to transcribe at least one song each 2 weeks by ear. Usually, I let the Noteworth Composer program to sing my transcribed solo work. After I make sure all the notes are OK. Then, I give it to my tutor to correct my mistake for theory of my work . However, I do know what sound & MP I like. May be you don't believe, I have test on so many different MP these in the past 7 months. I already own more than 10 MP for alto & soprano. For Alto; Meyer M5, Yana #7 HR, V16, Dukoff D7, Beechler Bellite metal, Jumbo Java. For soprano: I have a Yamaha Custom HR, Selmer SS, a Beechler Bellite metal, Metal Link, a Lawton P Chamber & a Bari HR. The best sound for my ear is Beechler Bellite metal #6 for Alto, I use only this for my alto since 3 months before. And I will keep to use it. For Reed, I also tried almost all different reed: SJ, Java, La Voz, Hemke, V-16, Vandroean Traditional, Bari Star Reed & Fribracell. SJ for alto is my final choice and I mainly use Hemke for soprano. I'm just very surprise that I can't make a Altissimo G by trying all different fingering. In technical side, not sure what mistake I have made.
marc User ID: 0805074	Oct 29th 4:32 AM Micky, I also started very recently and have been advised to practice overtones every day, this is one of the entry doors to altissimo. Try this to evaluate your level : play a low Bb and without changing your fingering (no octave key, etc) at all, try to play a Bb one octave higher, then a F one octave higher, then a Bb, etc ... just by changing your tongue position. This will open up your high register and teach you the right tongue positions. It really helps me a lot but TAKES TIME ! There are some books on the overtones subject.
danmcb User ID: 8506593	Oct 29th 4:43 AM Take it slowly ... if after 6 or 7 months you have all your scales down in 2 octaves, you're doing well. Spend a few minutes a day doing long notes, overtone exercises and the note bending exercise (look at 'It's all about tongue position' in the altissimo section) and you will start getting your altissimo soon enough. It's not too soon, but don't focus on it too much! You can make a LOT of music without altissimo. If you make altissimo your only goal, you might end up doing it by biting or in some other bad way. But if you master all these exercises, you should improve your overall sound, tone, AND one day, the altissimo will suddenly pop out.
kelvin User ID: 8416263	Oct 29th 8:24 AM How do you do the overtone? I just do it by changing my embrochure without changing tongue position, then I can play 3 overtone, but I can't make the 4th. Is that because of my tongue?
MS User ID: 0130044	Oct 29th 9:57 AM Micky I would suggest you get a copy of a book called "Voicing, an approach to the third register" by Donald Sinta. Has good information and exercises to learn the altissimo register. If your teacher plays in the altissimo register, have him help you. A book will give you ideas on how to learn, but won't teach you anything. A live model/teacher can be very helpful.
Micky User ID: 1062774	Oct 29th 9:50 PM I'm spending 70% time on technical things in each practice seession: 1) Tone developement (Long tone + Match tone together by using Crescendo& Decrescendo approach) 2) Fingering exercise - Purpose is to speed up fingering with good tone + warm up. 3) Scale in All keys - Major, Minor (Melodic, Harmonic, Dorian, Natural), Pentatonic Major. Each scale by playing in 2 octave if possible. Some scale I can't play 2 octave at this moment like A, G or G#. 4) Pattern - Major Triads, Minor Triads, Major in Third, in Froths. I use different tonguing when practice scale & patterns (All slur, or all attack, or Jazz tonguing - Tongue every other note) The remaining 20 to 30% for this: 5) Play song or solo transcribed. Sign reading is a part of it. I think my routine is very full, it takes at least 2 hours to complete usually I don't have 2 hours time). I really want to add let say 10 minutes on Altissimo. My teacher has shown me this but not easy to understand because I can't see how his mouth doing. I think must be some trick/ I miss something on it so that I can make the Alt G. PS; Does some saxophone have problem to play Altissimo note ?
Kevin User ID: 9753653	Oct 29th 9:57 PM Get Rascher's Top Tones and work through it....and read about some of the tongue position exercises that have been described in this site.
MS User ID: 0130044	Oct 29th 10:10 PM A player who can play altissimo on one instrument can play altissimo on any instrument that is in good repair. You will have to learn, by trisal and error what to do with the inside of your mouth. Several threads and a couple of books have been suggested for you to read through. Do the work and take time. This is not a short or easy process for some.
Grumps User ID: 0909594	Oct 29th 11:39 PM Sounds like you've been working very hard at your free throws and now you want to slam dunk. Truth is, not everyone grows tall enough to slam dunk, but that doesn't mean they don't have game. Practicing free throws is good solid fundamentals and reaching for the slam dunk is fine and dandy, but don't forget to work on your game. That's your priority and that's where it's all really at.
Danny Barrett User ID: 1084044	Nov 5th 12:30 AM I was going to say to get Rascher's book, but Kevin beat me to it. Rascher was the master of overtones and altissimo, so don't try to short-cut what he says, or you'll only end up setting yourself backwards. As the other guys have said, do your long notes and overtones first and foremost as preparation to the altissimo. Also, some sax's aren't good with altissimo, but most should be OK. A good example of a bad sax for altissimo is my Weltklang tenor: Most of them are very flat, and no amount of embouchure adjustment will fix them. On the other hand, I played around with a Chinese Selmer MK VI copy, and they were perfectly in tune. Your Yanna shouldn't have any problems like my old "klanger". In any case, don't rush it - you've got a lot of embouchure work to do between now and popping out any altissimo note you may desire, so don't be too concerned about it yet.
Screech User ID: 2309834	Nov 14th 6:13 AM Good luck and don't tighten up it doesn't work.
SaxMan User ID: 9488873	Nov 16th 10:56 PM - Mickey I would not start until about at least a year of playing, I tried my first altissimo note after about 6 months and I couldnt play for 3 weeks. luckily the damage was not permanent, but it can be if you do not have a emboucher strong enought to support these notes. Be patient, I now have a 5 octave range, got most of it last year.
MS User ID: 0130044	Nov 17th 2:16 PM The time to start altimisso is when you are interester and ready to go about learning. The smart way is to learn by lernning to do voicings with your oral cavity and vocal tract. I have a seventh grade tenor student that can play three or four altissimo notes. He does the mouthpiece ex and can vary the pitch by voicing on the mouthpiece. The mouthpiece exercise on tenor (concert G) is the setting for the tenor altissimo A3. Once I pointed this out it clicked for this student. I am an esperienced teacher and would not encourage a student to do something that will be harmful to his playing. However I have taught college students that didn't develop altissimo until junior year. Development of altissimo is sometimes a physical thing, sometimes an understanding thing. Not every young person develops in a rigid predictable manner in years. I sometimes find that young students are more flexible in learning altissimo that players who have played for years and never attempted altissimo. Working on altissimo with the supervision of a good teacher is invaluable. Sometimes if you think you can, you're right. Ig you think you CAN'T, you're also right. Developing altissimo by jaw and teeth pressure alone is indeed painful and probably won't work. Have fun.
SaxMan User ID: 9488873	Nov 19th 12:53 AM Ya, well ive got a 5 octave range plus one half step, low A to the 5th Bb on the sax. (lower Bb with foot.)